|MMMark's Whycandoo Room: Maintaining Personal Center|
22 comments10 May 2002 @ 03:11 by shawa : Thank you...
10 May 2002 @ 04:56 by ashanti : Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela
PLEASE, Mark, this is the second time I have corrected you - his name is NOT Joseph Mandela, it is: Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. Thank you.
Kim - this is not deliberate I assure you - age!
10 May 2002 @ 12:18 by vaxen : now change...
all the 'we's' to 'I' and realize that maybe, just maybe, some of us are way beyond the people that you so love to categorize yourself with but really love to 'speak down' to...as if human kind was in some process of 'evo-lution.' Humankind has'nt 'evolved' ever! Human kind came to this planet complete! Wanna do something? Find out who the hell you are and stop legalising every breath of air. you'll feel better for it and so will every other 'do gooder' who comes down the infinitely long and proverbial 'pike!' Non Serviam!
10 May 2002 @ 20:17 by mmmark : Vaxen
Vaxen has quite profoundly and eloquently managed to give us an example of the communication challenge I descriebe in this post, and violate the new NCN membership guidelines all with one stroke of wit!
10 May 2002 @ 22:54 by b : bee says - Hahaha
Yes we do have spirited communications at NCN. No rules violated that I see. No flaming. Vax penetrated right to the point: You pontificate Mark, coming accross as holier then thou. Indeed some of us here are highly evolved spiritual beings in addition to being good people and citizens. What that means is, one in control of self can cause uplifting change, not just in self but in others. A philosphy is only as good as it can be demonstrated. Ergodcity is correct. Sometimes you need a good shake. I like mine with root beer syrup and chocolate ice cream.
11 May 2002 @ 11:05 by mmmark : Runaway
Well folks, Vaxen did not say anything specific about our engrams or how to break the pattern that keeps us feuding. So his changing the subject in the form of personal insult doesn't enlighten me to anything and starts a problem I dont want. That violates Ming's new rules and my sense of common courtesy. My response brought this post back on-topic and cautioned his approach.
I was my sincere desire to reveal where one of my personal challenges and talk about the bigger picture in principle to healthy human communications. I put out my observations and called for a dialogue, but I did not get that response. I am not going to match negative energy or engage in argument if I can help it - I'm not running away afraid to face myself or any responsible comment.
If some of you think that I am here for my personal benefit or ego verification you are sadly mistaken. Many of us have asked that we do not engage in character attacks, because they produce no forward result, and because they are the reason the world is ill. Please stop and think about the cumulative affect of all the pointless negativity we have to issue. I want to inspire you to a more discriminating standard of performance when it comes to the Cosmic Principles of success that society must honor in order to have peace.
If any member would like to discuss my manners, or alert me to methods I use as the result of living 49 years, then they should do so in an appropriate way. A private message would be nice so it doesnt take the post off-topic. It also would be less embarrassing to all parties. I am always interested in improving myself and becoming a better communicator. Nonetheless, I would ask that insults never leave our lips and that we keep our criticisms to ourselves. Just tell me that I do something that makes you uncomfortable and why.
11 May 2002 @ 11:28 by scottj : Personal criticism or not?
Looking at the posts above I do discern something in Vaxen's post that seem to me to be "personal" and in fact a "holier than thou" pontification in negative so to speak. I also detect a snide, conspiratorial undercurrent in Chip's comment. Elements of cyber bullying in both posts in fact. However in this context it seems relatively trivial, in comparison to determined manipulation and abuse. The fact is, as I see it, that we all have a lot of shit to process before we can get back to what we (probably) already had however many millions of years ago and I can't see calling up a rule book is going to help in that process. The limits, IMO, need to be drawn a little further back and I would urge a more relaxed approach ...... hang loose guys?
11 May 2002 @ 14:10 by martha : New World
As I continue to watch the various personal dramas unfold on NCN I have finally realized what is missing. If that one element would be utilized by each participant, than there would be no need for rules or guidelines of any type. It is all so very simple and obvious. Than a New Civilization would evolve something all of us crave and hunger for and know is there just out of touch. By sensing that New World, yet unable to bring it into reality, maddens many of us. It makes us crazy, angry, frustrated, and depressed. So close and yet so far away. The great paradox and joke of humanity. What is the answer to this agony? Our Higher Self.
Higher Self is that part of us that comes from goodwill and love.
Every person has a Higher Self. There are no exceptions.
As I observe these dramas, I can see the Higher Self is missing at times. There are glimpses now and than. And lots of words, but never the basic question we should always ask. Are we speaking through our Higher Self, and when we read the words of others do they speak from their Higher Self?
The Higher Self is where Truth, Love, and Responsibility lie. Our Higher Self contains all the goodness of humanity. Each person has a sense of Higher Self within themselves, often covered by wounds and pain, hungering to show yet afraid, knowing they might be ridiculed for taking the higher road.
A Higher Self speaks only when the time is right, with truth, gently with goodwill and love wishing only the best.
And I will be the first to raise my hand to say I stumble all the time and manage not to speak from my Higher Self. The good news is the more we are aware and try to come from Higher Self, the easier it becomes. And it is only through the Higher Self that a New Civilization will rise.
PS We all have jazzoLog to thank for this post. After I posted on his log my thoughts on matching energy got me thinking as I listened to Van the Man. See what rock and roll can do!!!!
Than I read Mark's post and felt this is where I needed to place my thoughts on Higher Self.
11 May 2002 @ 21:24 by b : bee says
Martha, no disrespect intended but in communicating with our Higher Self are we or can we also consider communicating with our lower self and maybe there is a middle self, I never considered or even wondered about that. I have thought that we as human beings of Earth are a composite of Body - mind - Spirit. Body being in Spirit, Spirit(the being itself, "I", me, you)the spirit all around body, the mind being a tool of body and spirit. That concept has one self, the spirit. It is possible for more the one spirit to be there. Some are aggregate, some are sole. At point of body death the Spirit leaves the body often going to a between lives area, sometimes not. How do you like that cosmology? There are many belief sytems that people have, some with their own cosmologies, I always include spirits in mine and usually the One Source of all Life. :)
12 May 2002 @ 00:17 by scottj : Higher self / lower self
There is a tremendous amount to be gained from the Higher self / Lower Self paradigm. I don't pretend to understand half of it but I do know it is a very useful personal litmus test to guage my own actions. "Why am I doing this, really?" can be a revealing question to ask. It can also be useful as I kind of critical third eye as you go through a communication "You started out fine there but now you are starting to slip into *this* or *that* role again." And so on.
I guess the bottom line is that the lower self is a "me! me! me!" dull eyed kind of figure while the higher self is bright eyed and aware of "you!"
12 May 2002 @ 01:06 by b : bee says
So Scotti you are saying you have two selves? You are two selves? And there is a high self/low self paradigm: a plan, design, model, pattern? I guess that if you follow or perform a plan you would know why you are doing it. The goal, the end result, right? I'm saying that I am one self, me, and at point of body death I, the self, go on.
12 May 2002 @ 01:50 by ming : Selves
Some of my own most valuable learning has come from people and situations that forced me into sides of myself I was used to ignoring. What I had needed to hear have often come from the opposite direction that what I expected. For example, at some point I was 100% mental, left brain, trying to figure everything out, and totally out of touch with my feelings or anybody else's. I didn't particularly suppress them, I just didn't have any emotions, and anybody else's emotions just seemed like insanity. I went through some shifts in my life, some ups and downs, and suddenly started to greatly appreciate anything that made me *feel*, and I totally switched around and developed a preference for hanging out with emotional people, and I started orienting towards things primarily in a kinesthetic way. Also, in recent years I've found the most enjoyment in pursuing things that pertain to lower selves. Very basic life kind of stuff. Having a fight and making up. Learning how to be human. I spent many years of my life pursuing spiritual disciplines directed towards my higher selves, and towards being a super-human saint of some kind. That's all nice, but in recent years it really seems like I've had to try to balance it out and focus on more normal things. Now I value authenticity more than anything. I'd rather have juicy, honest, real and surprising experiences than I'd bother to emulate spiritual perfection. I think it will all come toghether sometime, and I think we should probably strive to bring ALL of our various selves into alignment. But I doubt that any one of us here has the ideal way of doing it. So I think the best we can do is to try to live life in an uncompromising way, and be ready to learn from anything, even the stuff that ticks us off at first.
12 May 2002 @ 07:49 by martha : SELVES AND SPIRIT
I am delighted to see the above discussion occurring concerning Higher Self, spirit, other selves etc. Thank you bberez for bringing up the ideas of spirit, mind and body. Yes I agree those are the parts that make us whole. The Higher Self (I believe) is the integration of body, mind and spirit. Another way to express it is being an adult, which Patricia Sun describes. The maturing of the left and right brain to work together to bring new and healthier living patterns into existence. Others might describe the Higher Self as the god in them. Or maybe its the essential self.
The label is only that. My fundamental point it that every person on the earth has inside them that place that comes from love and goodwill. AND EACH PERSON KNOWS THIS INCLUDING THE BULLY. This is the only place from which a New Civilization can form. This is the way.
12 May 2002 @ 08:15 by scottj : Bbrez: I would go a whole lot further
than that I would say that I and everyone else, including you bbrez, are made up of multiple selves. Some people call it moods. In some people the elements that make up their personality (call them selves, sub personalities, moods whatever) are more consistently integrated than in others which mean they follow their plans more consistently. Where a person's sub personalites are more fragmented their behaviour tends to be more chaotic in relation to their stated goals. As far as the higher / lower self dichotomy goes this is, as i understand it, based on an awareness of others (I think Sartre called it Being in and for itself), an ability to function co-operatively while at the same time maintaining a consistent identity or centre. The higher self might be defined as a "holistic integration of all of a person's sub personalites in a communally aware being" but that is just a speculative attempt at a definition on my part.
What happens to this polymorphous agglomeration of experience that is me when I die I do not know as I have never been there. It will be interesting to find out though.
12 May 2002 @ 08:26 by scottj : Martha, what you are saying is
exactly what I have come to in relation to the bully problem and how to have a space where there can be, at least the possiblity, of resolving a conflict.
Namely that the bully HAS to be given a ladder to climb down, an opportunity to walk away from the situation and grow beyond it. It is not enough to have some sort of procedure whereby people can be expelled according to a book of rules, they have to be given that ladder so that, if there is any expulsion, they do it themselves. The abscence of such a method will eventually at some point empower a bully to take over that very process and use it to exclude those who "break the rules."
I would go as far as to say that finding practical ways to facilitate this are at the very foundation of what would be required to achieve anything practically meaningfull from a project like NCN. Until there is a way to process these conflicts the project will be 100% tied up in that problematic and therefore unable to focus outward towards doing work in the wider world.
12 May 2002 @ 08:45 by martha : You have nailed it
Scott- Your last paragraph nails it.
12 May 2002 @ 09:48 by scottj : Martha, It is a starting point
at least but still a long way to go, like: coming up with some formula that can work, and then dealing toe to toe with a cyber bully, having them back off and for the real work to go on unimpeded with them still onboard, contributing: A huge challenge, but one pioneering a new civilisation thats for sure....
12 May 2002 @ 20:34 by magical_melody : Mark I thank YOU for being HERE!
Mark, in response to your invitation: Just tell me that I do something that makes you uncomfortable and why. I prefer to do this in community because this newslog has invited more honesty.
Gees, you guys - Whoah! It seems that I detect that some of you are fighting against the tendencies to walk on eggshells in here, and I empathize with you. I see you fight against the boundaries that your brother may need right now, even as the environment here often invites gunfire at times. I feel like I visited the weekend warrior camp and the men are trying to tear down the egos of one another so that they can get to the pain. Is that necessary here? That is the old psychological and military approach. Tear em down, and you can get hold of his humanity. Those of you criticizing Mark, are not sharing how he impacts you directly, and are missing the opportunity to come clean with your own side-way remarks and not so respectful postings. You actually are pushing the man to further hold up his shield, the very one you criticize. I would prefer to hear more of you owning your own response more personally and respectfully. I invite more compassion and gentleness in your approach.
Mark you so often surprize me. I feel that despite your reservations, you invite input and risk injury. You are so courageous and open. Then you are so cautious and I have been irritated with you because I experience you as lecturing at times, when I would rather hear you confront issues or people more directly. I see you expressing rules for conduct. This tendency makes me feel like you are imposing your own limits upon others, with projections and judgment. In response, I feel a resistance to come in here and post. I notice that people here get into this lecturing posture alot, and it is rather annoying. I feel it stand as a safety barrier to being more open, honest and self responsible. I feel that is what the bros are railing against. I often want to steer away from you in order not to offend you, or say something that you may jump all over in long duration, because you put up barriers. You have been quick to take injury. Then you lay out all of these ideals that you wish people could ascribe to. You are truly human!
I believe that we all have elements of one another within us, and whatever we do not accept in us, we condemn more directly in others. I still have this tendency to lecture at times, and need to be reminded to stop and come clean bros and sisters. It has been a protective thing for me.
I feel this push/pull energy from you, as you draw me close and push me away. These are my feelings. You catalyze so much community connectivity, and then you push people's buttons, and you let your heart bleed, and then you allow healing. A true catalyst. You lecture and then you own your own process. I appreciate you more and more as I witness you, and I feel that your protective shield is growing thinner, and yet your self respecting boundaries grow stronger. I respect your ideals and desires and how you dance around things for awhile, and then run right into them. I love you! You show me myself and then you don't. You catalyze important dialogue here and I thank you. We are so Human and yet so Divine. We are the Many and the One. Namaste... Alana
12 May 2002 @ 23:26 by mmmark : Alana & Me
Alana, I really appreciate your comments, I just wish I knew more precisely what I should do differently. Your perceptions of my behavior are not the exactly results I want to generate. I certainly do not want to preach, so I try to talk about fundamental holistic success, not about small disconnected issues. Even though this post bit long, it was an attempt to talk about how we get into scrapes and how to approach ending them. Developing a dialogue about our posts is most important to moving forward in a brainstorming sort of fashion, yet as we can see, that usually does not happen because some of us want to offer comments that do not add to the mix.
I have learned quite a bit about cyber-relationships, yet I am only beginning to make adjustments to better writing and communicating. I would be most anxious for us to send private messages so that I can learn from your perspective where I might improve my thinking and attitudes, most specifically how I am irritating. I am very cautious about what I say, because it doesnt seem to matter how careful I am, someone here usually doesnt like it and feels compelled to beat me over the head with it, in what seems usually to be an irresponsible way. As we all have our flaws, it probably isnt a good idea to focus on them - to make them an issue, which has nothing to do with posting to establish connections of thought and practice for reform.
I am proud of you - always impressed with your writing ability - and happy to claim that I asked you to join in all this NCN fun! Thank YOU for being here!
13 May 2002 @ 07:58 by magical_melody : Your welcome!
Yes the post was long, yet look at it this way. I have not been posting here and it all came out in one large one to break the silence. I would be willing to email you direct and share. Emotions and defenses will fly from time to time, and I feel just be clear with our response to a person's comment and own ones feelings as the opportunities present themselves. Thanks for being able to hear these words and invite more dialogue. Peace, Alana
13 May 2002 @ 08:41 by jazzolog : Paintball on the Weekends
Looks like Alana has blown our cover about the wargames we play when we think no one's around. Time to hang up our camouflage suits and face-paint until the heat's off, guys.
Here's the deal though: if all this has done nothing more than witness Alana's increased posts, and Dana's venturing onto this scene, I think we've accomplished something. It's really great to read everything you've been sharing with us, Ms. Ray.
13 May 2002 @ 12:44 by magical_melody : Thanks Jazzolog!
We all get caught up in various roles, games and dramas from time to time. I think the real question is: what do you want to give or receive truly, when you post? What are your intentions when you write up your newslog? What do you hope to accomplish when you share your thoughts, views or feelings? or gain? Are we really prepared for what comes? We will find out!!!!!
Peace and harmony my Bros, Alana
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