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 NCN Infrastructure Forum from 199827 comments
8 Feb 2002 @ 00:54, by Mark Smollin

Topic: The shape of the New Civilization

Topic Posted by: oldman (jkallard )
Date Posted: Mon Jan 19 11:51:50 1998
Topic Description:
Much is said and little is done. Surely, that is the cry of many, and it is an echo from across the ages. Utopias have been offered before and we have yet to find even an inkling of where the candles we need to find our way are hidden. Here we are, now. How shall we go forward? believe that the first thing that is needed is a series of new definitions, ones that hold in themselves the best examples of the past while lighting the path to the future. Example: Success. What is a success? How does society define the term? We know from the past that anyone who goes forward and improves the lot of humanity is generally considered a success. However, the will/desire to create or improve is often mutated by the desire for money, fame or power, power defined as the amount of control one has over the lives of others. Define Power. Define Control. Once we have these things in place, it will become easier for others to follow. DANGER!!! I know from past experience that if we merely "destroy" the negative aspects of the past we stand in jeopardy of seelf-destruction. The desire/will to improve the world, or one's own standing, carries much that is negative: the desire to damage, destroy or control others to maintain the position of authority one has created, but to eliminate that will also destroys the impulse to improve. Question: Where is the balance point? Where can we look and how do we implement our best desires and dreams without confining ourselves to past chains or eliminating the adventurousness of the human spirit?

Message Reply:

Posted by: Flemming ( )
Date posted: Sun Feb 15 23:51:40 1998
Subject: Definitions Message:
Well, I'm not sure if what we need is definitions. We're not very likely to all agree on them anyway. But, hey, better definitions for key elements of society would certainly not hurt.

I think what we need is another infrastructure. Better systems and ways of relating to each other, without all having to agree and without us all ending up being confused.

We need tools for small groups working together meaningfully, we need tools for organizing all the global information. We need ways of tying all the pieces together into wholes, rather than having to be overwhelmed by a zillion fragmented pieces.

A think a key problem with today's world is that we're presented with a false image of fragmentation. We get the picture that the world is random and meaningless and confusing and disjointed. Really it isn't, I think it is a false picture, composed by faulty media and faulty intelligence systems and faulty educational systems.


2002 = I include this in my log to illustrate that we have the proper consciousness of analysis, but not the consciousness to action. These two parts of a dialogue seem so profoundly similar to what I experience here on NCN in the present time frame.

With all the negative posts on the subject of finding agreement, isn’t it imperative to find agreement on the definitions which matter most? Success is one of those terms. Clearly my definition of success has little relation to the public use of the word and understanding it represents. In our newly civilized minds exists the new model we must build publicly, so we all know what that is collectively, to lead our children and set an example of this awareness to the old civilization. We must lead now. Where is the accessible depository distilled of NCN wisdom for success, where all can search it, and can see it, and have it compel agreement spiritually?

Tasks like this one all require infrastructure design to capability, organization and orchestration of our participation.


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8 Feb 2002 @ 02:23 by ming : Definitions
I think it would be great with some definitions, and some models for how to proceed with things. I also think it is great if people get together and agree on concerted action. What I don't like is if we depend on that in any broad way to get anywhere. I don't think we should wait until we all agree on the same definitions. I don't think we should wait to act until we agree on what actions to take. I think we should start right now. But I do think that a clear picture, a clear model, a clear definition .. can be an inspiring and activating element. I just put it in a different place in the sequence, if that makes sense. I say, make a good definition and show it to people, and if it is good it will inspire people. As opposed to trying to corral everybody together to agree on a definition. Another way of saying it: use the agreement that you find - but don't make agreement the outcome.  

8 Feb 2002 @ 02:57 by shawa : "We must lead now"
Ha! I believe this is one hot item of discussion. I believe in leadership wheels, each of participants taking turns in their particular best field of talent when crisis needs the best out front. I believe in leadership born in shared Essence. Are we on the same page yet, I mean as a collective group/nation/planet/system? (Right behind Barbara (Hubbard), there). And experimenting with my group in "real" life. It works. And/but each individual has to be crystal clear about shadows and power trips. And gender peace. (Smile).  

8 Feb 2002 @ 09:36 by jazzolog : Forward March!
My concern arises when realization dawns we have stepped off a cliff. No one noticed it there? That's definition. What is the topic? Infrastructure? Shape of the New Civilization? Who proposes the topic offers initial definition. Can't agree? Step back in perspective and think larger, more basic. Ultimately a group decides on a topic and its definition, true. Basic human organization. But without definition the need is to step backward...not forward... It's a long way down.  

8 Feb 2002 @ 17:54 by simpleman : "COOKIE JAR"

8 Feb 2002 @ 20:09 by mmmark : Simpleman
I agree completely. What shall we do about those who do not know this and make the rest suffer?  

9 Feb 2002 @ 00:42 by maxtobin : love them
Simplicity is the essense of genius, the only relevant work is the work of self expressing in relationship. May we embrace (become aware) of our own shadow aspects and then love them into the light, and those who still live in shadows of/with their own deception we will find little to resonate with, we will be too busy lovingly making compost and interacting with people with whom we feel a positive resonance. I know this sounds a bit airy in view of present circumstances, however I am not advocating that we ignore the negative forces in our self healing society, but like the macro so is the micro, if we feed it our love while maintaining a discerning awareness then I think we will find what we search for. The problem of definitions is that in this we are searching for a lable to the process rather than simple immersion within the moment, we know what is right when we experience it we relate to it with an inner fullness of blissfulness and joy which is all but overwelming. I think we all agree we are looking to create a healthy society that empowers all individuals as true equals respecting individual differences and talents. We will find this by doing appropriate things, striving for health and happiness on an individual basis we find is not enough, but as on an individual basis we need only identify the self limiting activities or/and belief patterns and replace them with the health creating ones. So it must be in the greater society, become aware of the disruptive unhealthy activity and identify it then replace it, if this is impossible given the enormity of the "powers that be" then perhaps we just stop feeding that system. The essense of a new civilisation must be already here, we are not trying to define it so much as giving expression to what we are already doing in this regard and trusting that like minded souls will come into the collective vision.  

9 Feb 2002 @ 01:43 by mmmark : Thanks Commentors
May I please offer that we not worry about "who" so much as "how" and "what."  

9 Feb 2002 @ 02:04 by shawa : The how and what
Mark, I offer the suggestion that the "how" and the "what" will be born out of the "who"; case by painful&slow case, perhaps.(A) (new) World will structure itself by what comes out of "relationship" (=contact, love in its scientific sense). I feel we still all need to polish the "who" (as Max said above, working with our own shadows -) until a crystal clear direction emerges, which I think all of us will have developped a sense for, by the time it is born.  

9 Feb 2002 @ 03:17 by jazzolog : On the Mend
The cookie jar already is broken---cracked anyway. Surely we all can agree on that. But how far gone is it? Beyond repair? Do we all agree on cleaning up inside first, sweeping one's own side of the street and keeping it clean? Perhaps. Yet few of us ever get that job all done---and those that do seem uninterested in moving into politics or setting up a country where we all can go and live happily. So what do we do in the meantime? And do we need laws? And how do we settle our differences? I'm REALLY interested in the New Civilization approach to that.  

9 Feb 2002 @ 11:55 by mmmark : Next Phase
I must be missing something. I seems presumptuous to take on the whole world, when our own cookie jar is the one in need of attention. We are the "who" in which we should trust. Our clear benevolent intentions are what really make the difference and the prime mover of change, but that is as far as we have gone on NCN. I am looking for more. I dream of the next stage. The social world is a big an unpredictable thing, but I believe we can make this community function to instill pride, unity, wisdom and fulfillment in a model of excellence. Of course this is my personal idea which may not appeal to others.  

9 Feb 2002 @ 12:27 by jazzolog : Modelling Excellence
It appeals to me, pal! I'm a newbie still; is there a group out of these many that is doing anything like that, Mark? Don't incriminate yourself now.  

9 Feb 2002 @ 16:44 by mmmark : Accused & Guilty
No group that has a way to do any of these things I am so fond of talking about. At least I do not know how to use the current software confoguration to any effective end. I'm a newbie too.  

9 Feb 2002 @ 17:59 by tdeane : ?
Hey, my friend, so start something!:-) Even if the direction changes, at least the momentum will begin. Much love ~Tricia  

9 Feb 2002 @ 20:47 by simpleman : THE NEXT PHASE
Here we all are, time on our hands, to much TV, tired of the same activities we've endoured lately, so lets search the WWW for something different. In our search for somrthing different we stumble on a new site called NEW CIVILIZATION NETWORK (NCN). Hey, sounds interesting, lets check it out. This sounds like it could be a lot of fun, so we join. That was the first step "phase" and perhaps the most important, as the first step usually is. We now find ourselves traveling through our new civilization and low and behold we hit an obstacle. We can't seem to go any further. I to am a newbie, but I think I see a possible path past this obstacle. I'm not sure who initiated the idea, but the development of a game caught my eye, and thanks to Ming a group has been established to explore ideas and try to make this happen. For our game(s) to be successful, we must overcome this first obstacle, grasp our hands in unity and explore deeper into our "NEW CIVILIZATION". Could this be the NEXT PHASE.  

9 Feb 2002 @ 22:50 by mmmark : Phases Next
Simpleman - I really appreciate your positive support and energy. The next phase require somthing along the lines of the seed I planted in my log post called: RE: NCN BRAIN = GLOBAL BRAIN = PERSONAL BRAIN. It describes organizing the basic aspects of the creative process. Please tell me what you think?  

9 Feb 2002 @ 23:48 by shawa : "Next phase".
This is a gift, please accept it as such.I offer it to be a conceptual open end allowing for further discussion, so that this glorious group of individuals will not be stopped in its progress by fences that HAVE been torn down, albeit discreetly.
We´re DOING something, here, in Spain. It´s small, even microscopic on a world scale, but it exists. We have been together as a team for 14 years now, so we must be doing something right. This affirmation might seem presumptuous, and I´m sorry if anyone thinks that. It´s a fact. We´re DOING our thing, having gotten down from high horses and new agey concepts, just quietly bought half a mountain, planted gardens, and set up something really new, something built on essence, like a wheel radiating from true center. I offer this as an alternative to the endless question of what next/what next/what next. Someone somewhere will have to ACTUALLY start on the CONCRETE phase (Tricia´s "Start something!") - "concrete" as opposed to "subjetive" (intentions, words,intellectual games). And by the way, we´re working on the website. It´ll be a pleasure, very deep indeed, to get this "on-line". You, dear friends, are contributing with every writing of yours; having a significant influence. We are making way. The property is huge, and it´s meant to be a sanctuary, in both meanings. The Earth Sanctuary. And just to keep things straight, we don´t need money, we don´t need people, we don´t sell anything. We don´t need anything, we´re bursting at the seams with real projects! It is being DONE, and there is no shortage of help. This is a (conceptual) gift to this group, OK? Don´t bite my ears!...  

9 Feb 2002 @ 23:57 by shawa : OH SORRY
...Sorry I jumped in like that - have gone over to read the article you mention above, Mark - and aaaaaaaaah... you´re talking about the NCN structure! Not reality! Oh. Then I agree with Ming - why don´t you start a group in the Group section ?????...  

10 Feb 2002 @ 00:41 by jazzolog : Yet Another Committee
I think we should start a group called Don't Bite My Ears.  

10 Feb 2002 @ 00:44 by mmmark : Moon Actions
Shadow of the Moon – No need to jump. We are not hypocrites either. I am specifically interested in developing internet technologies to do the type of thing you have going in Spain, but to join those who are not neighbors geographically. When Ming started the NCN Development Group, that was the place to work on this, however, it became immediately clear that it was only going to be another chat room. In addition, NCN Development is a very big subject that opens cross-conversations to a wide variety interests (one being games) without a way to narrow focus on a single aspect of development. From what I see, the tools available to the group are not capable of developing any single idea from beginning to conclusion. Now that is an excuse of sorts, but I have repeated outlined what I believe are good capability objectives. My NCN BRAIN post is an initial outline and Ming is aware of my desires. The type of changes required can begin slowly, but the whole picture over time looks like a completely new and different NCN. This isn’t going to happen without a long-term plan with serious intentions. We must be patient. We must build our consensus in some manner to do this and Ming must be willing to make his personal investment. I remain open and anxious to have us build a plan of action. I have also suggested that we edit together text that becomes a single summary of consensus, by passing it around. This tedious but doable. To expand on the difficulties of development please read all posts in "Social Systems Design" to see how that process has become completely dead in the water = mostly for misperceptions and lack of willingness to set sail in a single direction. How do you coordinate a group of people on the web? There are corporate software packages that do this type of thing, but I think we could find pride and satisfaction to make ours better. Namasté.  

10 Feb 2002 @ 00:47 by jazzolog : We CAN Go On Meeting Like This
I like how we folks find each other on these newslogs, often each other's, and keep talking It up. Maybe this consciousness is our group, for people like us here at NCN---who think for ourselves, very independently, and are pretty fussy about our ideas and whether people are understanding us or not. We seem to want the same thing or direction or urgency. As we continue mentioning It, positively and with good humor---which this bunch seems to have in abundant harvest---it'll catch on and spread sunshine. How interesting some of this is coming from newbies. Maybe an oldtimer will show up and tell us our problem was solved long ago and bring out a dusty archive to prove it.  

10 Feb 2002 @ 03:12 by shawa : Have read the Social System Design File
OK, I get the drift. I´d just like to go on as I was before reading it!... - that is: do my butterfly dancing over the meadow. And chime in when time is right for me. LIVING ZEN is the word that we are looking for, methinks. Coming from synthesis and inner clarity, even butterfly dancing has its efficiency. (Oh, that´s a "haiku"). The tools exist, the people are glorious. The thinking is good. Intentions are honed. Why the thumping hell is "IT" not ocurring ? That´s what you say? (Ming´s "holy grail of interconnectedness", Yashmir´s "positive virus"). Hey, what if "IT" was ALREADY happening? Don´t stop the Flow. I´d recommend some further reading, like "The Field" (Lynne Mc Taggart, Harper & Collins). Everything is in place. Let´s ROLL!...  

10 Feb 2002 @ 13:13 by simpleman : OVERLOADED
If I'm understanding everything I'm reading, and thiers a 50/50 chance I am, then here's the result.
I think Jazzalog hit the hammer on the nail. I'm not much of a reader, but even if I was I couldn't keep up with all the newslogs, and group discussions. I simply read what I can and go from there. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have a variety, we have a variety of members with alot of different interests, and I'm sure everything we have is useful to someone.

I also applaud MOONSHADOW for doing what I hope we are all doing. Change begins at home with ourselves. If we practice what we preach it will make a difference with the people around us. We are a small group in a large world, and we spread throughout. Piece by piece we can make a difference with our peaceful, loving nature. By treating others with equal love and respect I believe they will in time also treat people with equal love and respect and so on, and so on.

As for the game(s), I just figuered it could be a way of reaching more people a little quicker with our ideas and perhaps have an influence on them.

As for infrastructure, yes we will need one as does any society, but whether we're at that stage now I don't know. Nevertheless, the thought process must continue. This will not be an easy process, and it will take shape with time.

I wish I could remember punchlines, cause you could probably all use a good joke right about now. OK SCOTTY, BEAM ME UP


11 Feb 2002 @ 08:36 by jazzolog : Love This Thread; Is Something Missing?
" I once read in an essay on Buddhism that 'nothing is so fragile as action without prayer.' Prayer aligns our internal energies with truth in a way that mere action cannot. Events ultimately unfold according to subconscious rather than conscious programming, and prayer is a way of healing and releasing the subconscious mind. When we pray that God take a situation into His hands, we are praying for two things: one, that events unfold at the highest vibration of love for all human beings touched in any way by the situation, now and forever; and two, that our minds remain aligned with truth. "

--Marianne Williamson

from page 70 of her book Illuminata  

12 Feb 2002 @ 01:09 by mmmark : Something Isn’t
Moonshadow is right – we have everything we need. We are of God, perfect in every way, and so too is the Cosmos perfect. We could choose to see the glass partially empty, but how does that help? At the same time we must be honest and stay curious, open to accept those things we do not yet see. Nonetheless, everything works perfectly. We can certainly use more good stuff, so haul it out of the closet. I think the big deal involves not knowing how to use our godly gifts responsibly. If we did this, we wouldn’t need a new civilization because it would be here now. I like to show off by saying, how can we have a new civilization when we haven’t yet made a plain old ordinary civilization? I would probably bet that somewhere in time there has been such a thing as civilization, yet my ignorance of the past fails to cite any example of a civilized society in the past 200 years – certainly no model to follow in my lifetime to date.  

12 Feb 2002 @ 03:04 by shawa : Civilization, anyone?
For what can be seen from the burden of shadows that piles on our generation, there hasn´t been any "plain ordinary civilization" for a THOUSAND years! Or more!
What´s the difference between: a) "...Oh! we MUST - absolutely - do this (and that)!" and ...b) "Let´s DO it!"... and c) just shut one´s trap and go and do it. There is a huge gap between intentions/thoughts and ACTION in the Western world (I mention Western, because it´s where I live). And this gap MUST BE BRIDGED, otherwise, it will just be loose talk, even on THIS channel (NCN).  

23 Feb 2002 @ 03:13 by jazzolog : Reviving the Thread!
We should pick this up again. As I read my posts from 2 weeks ago, I feel I have to introduce myself to me. Amazing how moods and perceptions shift around here! I'd like to get Shakti back on this groove again too. Let's talk it up again here. Richard  

23 Feb 2002 @ 13:35 by mmmark : Nice Idea Richard
We have to help encourage an outpouring. I woudd say this thread is still a hot topic and it seems to be going on in many places - gee, wouldn't be easier to do it in one room?  

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3 Oct 2008 @ 02:43: What 4
31 May 2004 @ 00:13: Memorial For America
24 Dec 2003 @ 18:22: Seasons Greetings
2 Dec 2003 @ 15:12: Shared Purpose
8 Jun 2003 @ 00:27: Namasté = Respect
22 Jan 2003 @ 20:59: Doers & Democracy
10 Jan 2003 @ 14:47: NEW STYLE THINKING
22 Dec 2002 @ 13:22: Wonderful Winter Holidays To You
4 Jun 2002 @ 02:13: Relationships
16 May 2002 @ 04:02: Thanks For Telling Me

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