Ev'rything is Satisfactual: Breathing with the mind    
 Breathing with the mind23 comments
24 Mar 2006 @ 20:25, by Uncle Remus

The bully—note his
Excessive deference to
Those whom HE respects.

It has been my experience here at NCN that some of the most inspiring posts come at times with some of the most puzzling comments.

Take this thread, for example, found on a poem about celebrating one's bliss:

The full moon in this puddle—
Leaving little room
For anything else!

How could a poem about singing one's song and following one's voice and one's truth possibly lead to a thread like this?

Silencing whom?

To what purpose?

And in the name of what?

Most certainly not in the name of NCN!

The old forget, the
Young do not yet know; so who
Perceives the present?

A nun who was searching for enlightenment made a statue of Buddha and covered it with gold leaf. Wherever she went she carried this golden Buddha with her.
Years passed and, still carrying her Buddha, the nun came to live in a small temple in a country where there were many Buddhas, each one with its own particular shrine.
The nun wished to burn incense before her golden Buddha. Not liking the idea of the perfume straying to the others, she devised a funnel through which the smoke would ascend only to her statue. This blackened the nose of the golden Buddha, making it especially ugly.

----Paul Reps, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones

The student fell
Fast asleep at his daily practice
Of Waking up.

Unless the freshness and spontaneity of process is kept alive in the moment now, it can eventually turn full cycle and our effort achieves the opposite of our intentions.

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25 Mar 2006 @ 11:57 by jazzolog : Fear
I don't recall the thread immediately, although I can think of 3 or 4 Logs where it may have appeared. And I guess it probably would help to know which of us said it. But off the top of my head---such as it is---I'd say the comment refers to the Bush administration rather than NCN. More generally it must mean that paranoid people often are expert at getting other people afraid too...at least momentarily. I remember an ominous guy in the large dayroom of an ancient state hospital where I worked in the '60s, who kept an overturned styrofoam cup in front of him. He cautioned anyone who came around him that if they touched that cup, the world would explode. The way he said it, by God, made you think twice!

PS Incidentally I don't think the Bushies themselves are afraid at all. Why should they be...as long as they manipulate everyone else to be afraid? Typical tactic of the playground bully.  

25 Mar 2006 @ 12:59 by jmarc : It would have to be about him
wouldn't it? But then "they" are all one and the same. Ne Not Afraid Richard. We are all one anyway...

Is it getting better?
Or do you feel the same?
Will it make it easier on you now?
You got someone to blame
You say
One love
One life
When it's one need
In the night
One love
We get to share it
Leaves you baby if you
Don't care for it

Did I disappoint you?
Or leave a bad taste in your mouth?
You act like you never had love
And you want me to go without
Well it's

Too late
To drag the past out into the light
We're one, but we're not the same
We get to
carry each other
carry each other

Have you come here for forgiveness?
Have you come to raise the dead?
Have you come here to play Jesus?
To the lepers in your head

Did I ask too much?
More than a lot.
You gave me nothing,
Now it's all I've got
We're one
But we're not the same
Well we
Hurt each other
Then we do it again
You say
Love is a temple
Love the higher law
Love is a temple
Love the higher law
You ask me to enter
But then You make me crawl
And I can't be holding on
To what You got
When all You've got is hurt

One love
One blood
One life
You got to do what you should
One life
With each other
One life
But we're not the same
We get to
Carry each other
Carry each other


Sorry about the U2 (haha you too). It probably doesn't add anything.

More syrup please. And none of that fake flavored fructose crap.  

25 Mar 2006 @ 14:34 by jstarrs : Yes!
Isn't it great that we can all express ourselves in such diverse ways here?
NCN isn't a thing, out there, existing from it's own side, inherently.
NCN is a label imputed on a collection of parts.
Like the one's above.
So, absolutely, not in the name of NCN.
Who would be so pompous?

p.s. what is your purpose in blacking out the names?  

25 Mar 2006 @ 22:24 by Hanae @ : Haiku - how delightful!

Caught in the act—
Confusing even himself
With all the explaining!

Did you know, jstarrs-san, that Haiku derives from hokku, meaning "a hook," lol.

What was Uncle Rem's purpose in blacking out names? My guess is that he probably thought it "unskilful" (in the Buddhist sense of the word) to embarrass anyone publicly, what do you think?  

25 Mar 2006 @ 22:24 by i2i : NCN Happiness 3?

I know the source of the thread above.

(Since Remus has chosen to keep this impersonal, I’ll respect his wish and keep the address to myself.)

Was the thread about Bush, Richard?

(Hard to say.)

Or does it have more to do with something that you and I, and others who are no longer among us, like Scott Johnson, talked about already, here, {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_d63/_v63/__show_article/_a000063-000242.htm|NCN Happiness 1}, or, here, {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_d63/_v63/__show_article/_a000063-000246.htm|NCN Happiness 2}, or, even here, {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v119/__show_article/_a000119-000010.htm|Candles in the Sun}?  

25 Mar 2006 @ 22:45 by jstarrs : Hanae...
..I would've thought that if anybody posted something on a thread then it was meant to be public and they were ok about posting their thoughts.
I know I am.
Unless somebody thought that by blacking out their names they would be 'protected' from a set-up that was set up?
Vax would understand.
He's also gone.
NCN is dead.
Abandon ship & look for the next thing.
What a joke.  

26 Mar 2006 @ 01:13 by Hanae @ : Those are actually senryu, you know?
Caught in the act—
Confusing even himself
With all the explaining!

The distinction is quite fundamental. While a haiku catches, in essence, a glimpse of the Natural Order, the senryu is a perspective glance at human nature, a remarking of psychological insight. While in the haiku, there is a non-involvement and remoteness, the senryu does brings in satire, wit, and humour, but although there may be irony or sharpness, the best senryu carries a compassionate understanding, which only rarely degenerates into commiseration or sentimentality. That which is painful in life is not rejected or ignored, it is astringently, but not maliciously, remarked---the observation is made and left at that.

So, what was Uncle Rem's purpose in blacking out the names? Again, my guess is that he probably thought them irrelevant. Just my two cents, eh?

PS: Sorry about the Haiku/Senryu confusion, and thank you, Etsuko, for your kind interest.  

26 Mar 2006 @ 01:19 by i2i : Hmmm...

I don't think that NCN is dead.

I don't think that's what this post is about, either, lol!  

26 Mar 2006 @ 03:24 by uncleremus : I believe the one about the moon
might be a haiku.

The full moon in this puddle—
Leaving little room
For anything else!


{link:http://www.newciv.org/ncn/ncnfaq.html|NCN FAQ}:
"The members of NCN are quite a diverse group of people
with quite different views and beliefs and backgrounds. It is
important to be able to tolerate this diversity and refrain from
putting others down because you don't agree with them.
There is no requirement that we all agree on the specifics.
We engage in dialogues to explore our diverse outlooks and
to find common ground where it exists..."

----Some ideas fill the mind, overshadowing whatever else is there. What if, like the moon in the puddle, they are ideas based on illusion?

"...Be open to new and different ideas and don't try to
enforce your ideas on everybody else."  

26 Mar 2006 @ 10:00 by jazzolog : As Long As We're Quoting "Da Rules"
we're supposed to be very careful in putting member names in the text of a public Log entry. In the first place, visitors may not give a hoot who we are personally, but worse Google picks up the material in the main text quite easily. That may be just fine...but then again, maybe not. Depends.

Wonderful to see Scott Johnson's name again i2i. I keep in touch with him, as I try to many of the lapsed members, but haven't heard in a while. I always get totally bummed when I remember all the people who tried this site out and then took off. The trouble is almost all of the involved ones leave discouraged and disgusted. The story Ming gives is they just get busy, take what they want, and go off to more productive creativity. In my experience of actually doing followup on such people, Ming's view is a pipe dream. I know Remus disagrees with this, but he's going to welcome my diverse view anyway.  

26 Mar 2006 @ 11:39 by jstarrs : Bullshit Richard..
..excuse my bad breath but check out the 85 members who've passed through the Landing since it was graciously set up not that long ago by Silvia to facilitate new people coming through.
Are you saying that the majority who didn't come back were pissed with NCN and decided not to take advantage of the offered tools?
It's got nothing to do with NCN and everything to do with the people.
As I said, NCN is just an dependant imputation on a collections of parts.
The parts are us.
Same old undigested story.
As Shawa once said before she left not disgusted but with other things to do - anyone who comes here and thinks NCN is for changing civilisation is fooling themselves.  

26 Mar 2006 @ 12:43 by Hanae @ : "Unskillful" spirituality

If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him: An adage that warns against one last fixaion — you can become unskillfully attached to buddhism itself. You have to discard that final dependency too.  

26 Mar 2006 @ 12:46 by i2i : Buddhism
Albert Einstein thought that:

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism."  

26 Mar 2006 @ 12:56 by Hanae @ : I don't know about that - lol

My point was that even the practice of Buddhism (or any spiritual practice) can become "unskillful," especially if it turns one into a "spiritual" bully, or become the source of open or covert wars against those on a network who because they do not follow the same path as you do, are labeled (oftentimes arbitrarily so) as ones "causing others to fear through their own fear," and such talks as who should be silenced or not. As jstarrs-san said "who would be so pompous?"  

26 Mar 2006 @ 13:02 by jstarrs : I'm happy we have...
..so many competent guides here to show us the way.
I bow with deference to their skill & wisdom.
We'll talk about the compassion later.
He-he...of course, everyone's right...
I'm off to kill some buddha's, see you in a while.
Be nice to one another.  

27 Mar 2006 @ 13:15 by swan : I am a long time member of NCN.
I am not as involved here as I have been in the past. I have tried all kinds of levels of involvement over the years and I have observed the different types of involvement. You could say I know this place. Most of my close friends at NCN are gone or not very active any more. The reason I am less involved is I feel there is little tolerence for diverse opinion and only certain kinds of newslog articles bring dialog, and for the most part I am not interested in the subject matter of those logs. People have been silenced in all kinds of ways at NCN, from "spiritual" bullying ( to quote "Hanae"), personal offense and defense tactics, "intellectual bullying", apathy, meaness, extreme seriousness, bullying for the sake of bullying, and subtilty just to name a few. That is the problem when interacting with so many different personalities. I don't like the fact that this happens so I stay out of interactions even if I might have something to add. (silenced) Things have gone around in the same circles for years. It gets boring.

People come to NCN and leave NCN for all kinds of reasons, life gets busy, NCN wasn't what they expected, they are disgusted, whatever. Personally when I leave it will be because it just doesn't work for me any longer. I like the newslog tool and that is what is keeping me here right now. If I found one that was as good or better than this one I would leave too.  

27 Mar 2006 @ 20:34 by uncleremus : NCN
The {link:http://www.ericberne.com/|games people play}… Games can be fun. {link:http://www.debonogroup.com/serious_print.htm|Games can be productive}. And, yes, {link:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094947|games can be cruel}, too. Creating a new civilization has been described as an {link:http://www.newciv.org/ncn/ncninfinite.html|infinite game} and Life itself might be a game. Like many here, when it comes to games I prefer both the fun/creative and the serious/productive variety to the destructive/cruel kind.

Many visions of what NCN means to different people, and some of the problems they have encountered have been laid out over the years as people walk in and out of what was intended to be the many gated, multi-dimensional space of NCN. My good friend Tom Bombadil once posted something about this in The Muse room and although his satirical (too much "in your face") approach did sometimes some of the points he tried to make a disservice, the array of links he provided in his hilarious {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v217/__show_article/_a000217-000136.htm|Muppet Show mosaic} is a fairly representative palette of some of the visions and issues that have emerged here over time.

In my experience NCN is at its best when interactions are generated out of a spirit of honest enquiry---i.e. people working together on a major project, a major question one is seeking to answer---like a {link:http://ming.tv/flemming2.php?did=10&vid=10&xmode=show_article&amode=standard&aoffset=0&artid=000010-000416&time=1060651914|Magical Soup Stone}.

For myself, I have been enjoying NCN as a creative place for me to bounce ideas back and forth, I am often not sure myself how a post that I begin is going to end, there is a sort of dialogue going on, mostly with myself---and with others too, when I am so lucky (although I don’t mind talking to myself, the benefit of such networks as NCN is that supposedly one should be able to communicate with others who share similar interests as one does.) One of the dimensions of NCN I like is its thinktank quality, and thinktanks work best when the diversity is great, and, well, that is maybe the part where the many gated, multi-dimensional ambition of NCN still leaves a lot to be desired. I think that typically, newbies expect that they will start posting and that people who share their interest will come up, and that they will be able to connect and, possibly work with some of the people they have thus met. More often than not, however, the diversity of the NCN active membership is not such that things will always end up working that way----unless one invests a lot of time and energy inviting the diversity in - i.e. invite people who share their interest to join NCN too and use the facilities to work with them on a given project. The thing is, most such groups tend to already have their own network on the internet and it is a hard sale to try and convince them that they should join NCN. In a way, it is a shame, because it is my conviction that if a way could be found to invite enough such “self sufficient” groups on NCN (which would address the excessive dependency on the currently overly stretched active membership for feedbacks and participation,) such groups and their members would eventually find reasons to interact with each other and turn the network into a bigger more optimally functioning NCN.

In my experience, things are at their worse when some members or coalition thereof decide that NCN is about this or about that (some people feel very strongly about that) and decide to embark on a crusade to impose their “vision” (openly so, or covertly so) on everyone else. To that regard, Swan’s point that there have been all kinds of bullying is well taken, and I agree with her wholeheartedly. I have chosen to focus on this post on what Hanae calls the “spiritual” kind, because it is the most insidious one, while the other kinds (like, for instance, the “we should all get on the same ‘blank’” activist agenda sort) are much more overt and therefore easier to spot.

NCN makes it abundantly clear that there is nothing wrong with any conviction one might chose to express individually or as a group on NCN, spiritual, political, or otherwise, just so long, as no one attempts to “silence” anyone else they feel is on the “wrong path,” so, I don’t know how most people feel about it here, but I find myself somewhat taken aback if some members jump on a thread on one of my posts to tell me that I am not with the program and demand, in essence, that I just shut up. On the other end of the spectrum, you also have sometimes the “{link:http://evolution.massey.ac.nz/assign2/EY/page3.html|skinners box}” environment type of situation when one might occasionally have the feeling of being on the receiving end of some experience in “behavior modification,” where “good behavior” is rewarded with a kind (yet oftentimes patronizing) “reward” comment, while “wrong behavior” is shunned. I don’t know, call me old fashion, I think I still prefer to be yelled at---paradoxically, I think, all things considered, that it’s more respectful.

Again, the active membership size is, I think, one of the aspect of the problem, as it is clearly impossible for everyone to be interested in everything---not that it would necessarily be a good thing if everyone were.

Time also is an issue. I have the feeling that some of the active members who maybe are unemployed one way or another, because they are perhaps retired of financially independent, do have a lot of time to devout to NCN. I mean there are some members who look like they are literally logged on all the time. I cannot compete with that. Most people do not have that kind of a time. I am not financially well off, I am not retired, and I don’t have a spouse who provides for me, so I work for a living. I work full time. What this means, is that when I take time to post stuff like what I just took the time of writing here, I do it on my time. If I take time off my work to do it, it means I have to make the time up, by either skipping lunch (like I am doing now) or by staying at the office after hours to catch up on my work. So, yes, when I log in, I would much rather be engaged in a socially pleasant, engaging and dynamic environment. Most people do. When it doesn’t happen, or when people start becoming aware of some of the things Swan was tlaking about in her above comment, well, most people don’t have the time or the patience to put up with it. And some of them, just simply leave. It’s as simple as that.  

27 Mar 2006 @ 22:14 by swan : Thank you for bringing up the idea of
time as it is a big factor for me. When I log on it is only for a few minutes at a time and I want to use the time productively to make a comment that I feel might be important, to connect with the people I have relationships with so I tend to avoid the sticky places where discussion and commenting would take up much of the day.

The issue of spiritual bullying as you are calling it is an important one. We are all on paths that are serving us in our evolution. I can't say that the one I am on is one that everyone should be on, nor can I say that someone else is on the wrong one. That is silly and errogant thinking. But like you say people are silenced or "set straight" a lot at NCN when it comes to spirituality.  

27 Mar 2006 @ 22:43 by Hanae @ : "A creative medium to bounce ideas"

I like that description. There is a bit of the whimsy of {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v97/__show_article/_a000097-000009.htm|the child next door} in it. That's what I like too about NCN.

If you fill a bag with jewels and knives, with nails and coins, with poison and ale, you never know what you will pull out when you are in need. What you find could hurt, what you find can help. It is very much like calling out the spirits of the Fae and ask them for help. Some help, some don't, that is always their way ;-)  

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29 Jan 2015 @ 15:48 by Nursena @ : pmuhinIcDZ
Wow! Great to find a post with such a clear mesasge!  

1 Jun 2016 @ 08:21 by Afifa Nuralifah @ : nice

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