Ev'rything is Satisfactual: Who is afraid of NCN?    
 Who is afraid of NCN?79 comments
picture30 Oct 2005 @ 02:50, by Uncle Remus

"It is sad for me to see the frittering of human energy on pointless finger pointing and self-defensive justification in the addictive need to be right."
----Mark Smollin - 8 Jun 2003 @ 00:27

This subject remains just as current now as when Mark Smollin’s article was first posted, almost two and a half years ago.

How many skirmishes have arisen because of flaming and bashing of a member's character, which had nothing to do with the content of the member's post, or the purpose of the post?

"As this is the sum of most social activity on NCN," Mark added on the same post, "I have abstained to participate."

Wendell Johnson, the author of "Your Most Enchanted Listener," in a chapter dedicated to "Seeing What Stares Us in the Face," had this to say:

"The story has been told of how a professor came to be dismissed from the faculty of a university during the Middle Ages: in the course of prolonged dispute concerning the number of teeth there are in a horse's mouth, he brought in a horse!
Without questions that require observations, and throw a steady beam into the places where they might be undertaken, either no observations will be made or, if they are, nothing will be made of them. And as soon as clear questions have been asked, we have no choice but to set about making the observations they require --- except as we may cherish our ignorance and conspire with ourselves to preserve it."

On an earlier post, Shunyata, I was reminded somewhere along the thread of this inspiring text, I once read, about the nature of Conviviality:

Conviviality is well and alive.
It has no structure, and no hierarchy.
It does not have, even, any given ideology, in the ancient meaning of the term.
This is the reason why it remains free and elusive.
From time immemorial, it sprung from remarkable and unexpected figures such as the Indian, Gandhi, or the Nazarene, Jesus.
An invader can poison a convivial community, it cannot conquer it.

It seems to me very relevant, as I find it true now, in "The Age of Communication," more than it ever was before. It is very relevant to the world of politics and mass communication. And, it is very relevant to the internet, as it is to a variety of networks on the World Wide Web. And so it is to NCN.

NCN cannot be conquered, but…it can be poisoned.


Is this what has been happening to NCN? If so, is the poison internal, self-inflicted, one of the natural pitfalls of human nature, as our good friend Mark Smollin seems to believe, or is it an act of malice on the part of some pathologically misguided individuals, or Trolls, or whathaveyou (a common problem on the Internet,) or is it a deliberate sabotage on the part of some ideological groups who are resentful of Flemming Funch (like possibly some current members, or ex-members, of some repressive cult?) or perhaps some paranoid political group, or politically affiliated individuals (freepers, or dittoheads, or would-be anarchists, etc.) who do not care for what NCN might, in their mind, become if allowed to prosper?

All of the above? Who knows?

It all seems so strange and so far fetched. Yet, one can’t help, at times, but wonder.

On the other hand, it could all equally be assumed that NCN has fallen over the side, over time, not out of malice on the part of anyone, but just simply out of natural neglect, lack of time, lack of planning, and lack of funds.

Equally plausible, is the possibility that NCN has just been looked at as some kind of a cyber experiment in "Spontaneous Generation."

History has it that "a seventeenth century recipe for the spontaneous production of mice required placing sweaty underwear and husks of wheat in an open-mouthed jar, then waiting for about 21 days, during which time it was alleged that the sweat from the underwear would penetrate the husks of wheat, changing them into mice. Although such a concept may seem laughable today, it is consistent with the other widely held cultural and religious beliefs of the time."

But, then again, we are not talking about abiogenesis, here, but about cyberspace, and connecting the people who change the world.

So, what is it that is not happening?

1. What is missing?

2. Who is missing? Who is it----who would be an asset to NCN----who is not part of NCN? And why?

3. Who are the active members of NCN? Are people leaving NCN? Why? Who are those people? Who are the people who are staying? Are some of the people who are staying in any way responsible for the departure of the people who are leaving? If so, it this the result of an intentional effort on their part? Is this part of a deliberate strategy? Is there any pattern there? Any button pushing? Any hidden agenda? Any false pretense? People who wear masks?

By people who wear masks I am not talking about the anons of NCN. It is one thing for an NCN member to choose to remain anonymous and post, say, under the name of Zarathustra----that member is not trying to deceive anyone, everybody knows that it is, of course, not Zarathustra who is posting----he/she could be some new member (or even possibly an old member returned under a new identity,) people may speculate as to whom this member is or is not, but basically Zarathustra is not deceiving anyone, because Zarathustra is not pretending that he/she is something or someone that he/she is not, Zarathustra is just someone who has chosen to remain anonymous. This is, of course, very, very different, from someone who is "lovingly sharing his/her identity," and claims he/she is, say, a German nurse living in Alaska, while the reality of the matter is that the so-called nurse is in fact a "freeper" living in New York whose sole purpose in joining NCN is to gain and abuse other members' confidence, play mind games, and pretend he/she is about something that he/she is not.)

4. Who are the movers and shakers of NCN? How could more people like them be persuaded to join NCN?

5. Who is afraid of NCN?

Who is afraid of NCN? Not of what NCN is now, but of what NCN can be, and one day will be. If not on this network, then it will be somewhere else, but, make no mistake, NCN is here, it is coming and it is coming big:

We are here.
We are waking up now, out of the past, to dream a bigger dream.
We are friends and equals, we are diverse and unique, and we're united for something bigger than our differences.
We believe in freedom and cooperation, abundance and harmony.
We are a culture emerging, a renaissance of the essence of humanity.
We find our own guidance, and we discern our own truth.
We go in many directions, and yet we refuse to disperse.
We have many names, we speak many languages.
We are local, we are global.
We are in all regions of the world, we're everywhere in the air.
We are universe being aware of itself, we are the wave of evolution.
We are in every child's eyes, we face the unknown with wonder and excitement.
We are messengers from the future, living in the present.
We come from silence, and we speak our truth.
We cannot be quieted, because our voice is within everyone.
We have no enemies, no boundaries can hold us.
We respect the cycles and expressions of nature, because we are nature.
We don't play to win, we play to live and learn.
We act out of inspiration, love and integrity.
We explore, we discover, we feel, and we laugh.
We are building a world that works for everyone.
We endeavor to live our lives to their fullest potential.
We are independent, self-sufficient and responsible.
We relate to each other in peace, with compassion and respect, we unite in community.
We celebrate the wholeness within and around us all.
We dance to the rhythm of creation.
We weave the threads of the new times.
We are the new civilization.

[< Back] [Ev'rything is Satisfactual]



30 Oct 2005 @ 07:18 by vibrani : Who is Uncle Remus?
Not the book character, but you. I have some idea of who you might be, but should I have to guess? Is there a reason you don't want people to know your real name? Are you afraid of NCN?  

30 Oct 2005 @ 09:19 by jazzolog : Sweaty Underwear
I tried the experiment, but no mice. Instead the wheat caught on fire!

"There are currently 9999 members in the database"

Of the dozens of members who logged in over the past month (which list you can examine on this page http://www.newciv.org/mem/activity.php?time=1130663343 ) a mere handful participated in either comments to Logs or in the Chats.  

30 Oct 2005 @ 14:13 by vaxen : NCN...
is coming big? Really. Whose NCN? There are no indications anywhere that a real ''New'' civilization is extant anywhere on the planet nor even in its' infancy. What really ''appears'' to be happening is the takeover of the planet by those who are well known to be enamoured of such enslavement, exploitation, implanting...

The New Civilization of ''Captain William Branton Robertson" is not the same thing as the NCN of whomever. What do you see happening with this so called ''network'' of people? Jazzologs 9999 reminds me of another 9999. It is called, in the Ring Archives Games, the Last Time Around. Purportedly this round is an extention, Ring 10,000, so that we can ''get it right'' for last time around the "good guys" lost miserably.

Perhaps the ''elements'' are simply not meant to 'fit' together. Maybe a design more along the lines of, say, the Whitehouse would be pleasingly perfunctory?


30 Oct 2005 @ 14:42 by swan : I have been active,
created groups
and space for creative expression,
connected with many people
around the world,
things wax and wane....
I have been quiet,
and introspective,
and have come back to center
in a way that works
at NCN
and in the world.
Things ebb and flow,
expand, contract
come back to center....  

30 Oct 2005 @ 15:08 by gea : I have learned...
...to mind my own business, not to get involved in skirmishes, to do my work in my own terms and quietly. A great learning experience. I have not encountered people who are really interested in a change of civilization though, lol. But I don´t really mind, since I have learned to live and let live. I mean, in the Internet.
Francis, is zat you ?

30 Oct 2005 @ 15:21 by jstarrs : Quid Novi?
Same as it ever was...people getting on with it and people complaining about people not getting on with it.
;0) As usual, sisters are doing it for themselves and it's raining men....  

30 Oct 2005 @ 17:19 by uncleremus : Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc

The question is not "can you make a difference?"
You already do make a difference. It's just a matter
of what kind of difference you want to make,
during your life on this planet. – Julia Butterfly Hill

If you assume that there's no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are opportunities to change things, there's a chance you may contribute to making a better world. That's your choice. – Noam Chomsky

Powerlessness and silence go together. We...should use our privileged positions not as a shelter from the world's reality, but as a platform from which to speak. A voice is a gift. It should be cherished and used. – Margaret Atwood

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those
who in times of crisis, maintain their neutrality. – Dante

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to
tell people what they do not want to hear. – George Orwell

Tyranny loves apathy. – origin unknown

Freedom is participation in power. – Cicero

Nobody made a greater mistake than they who did nothing because they thought they could only do a little. – Edmund Burke  

30 Oct 2005 @ 17:23 by jstarrs : Exactly...
..no personal substance, latin sounds good (means intelekchewal!) no personal comments, just a list of other people's thoughts, just trolling...same as it ever was.
Will probably say I'm attacking 'the messenger' and this is why NCN is sinking but that's your own limited & fearful vison that you've created yourself - after all, what's the message without the messenger?
Nevermind...others will get on with the work.  

30 Oct 2005 @ 18:26 by silviamar : I'm glad to have found NCN
It's an open and wonderful place to interact with people from many countries, to share our thoughts, our creativity, to learn new things... I feel comfortable here and I'm meeting very interesting people.
You could set up your own workgroup and start your projects there, so people interested in participate would join.  

30 Oct 2005 @ 18:28 by sprtskr : I love this article
It says what I would say if I could say it as well! The comments you received just proved your point. Well done. Who needs a label anyways,it just makes you an easier target.  

30 Oct 2005 @ 18:48 by uncleremus : jstarrs

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc, 'We gladly feast on those who would subdue us.' Not just pretty words."
--- Morticia Addams

I am sorry to hear that The Addams Family is too "intelekchewal" for you. Maybe you ought to go out more.

No, I don't think you are attacking the message, jstarrs, you are attacking the messenger.

(Oh - I see that you have edited your comment to say just that. your original message said "I Know you'll say that I am attacking the message...")

Here is another impersonal quote:

You cannot have a proud and chivalrous spirit if your conduct is mean and paltry; for whatever a man's actions are, such must be his spirit.
----Demosthenes, c383-322 BC

Hey, Demosthenes was a greek orator, so, I suppose it probably makes it a bad thing too, "intelekchewal," you know.

I do not claim to know "why NCN is sinking," jstarrs, I do not even know that "NCN is sinking," but---and this is no great secret---it is clear that it is not exactly moving forward either and not in the direction, nor with the momentum, that it was expected it would.

"...others will get on with the work."


Yes, well, people have, and people are, it is still hopefully, pretty much part of human nature. This is also part of what NCN is supposed to be about. The FAQ is pretty clear about this:

"The general agreement is to treat others with respect and kindness. The members of NCN are quite a diverse group of people with quite different views and beliefs and backgrounds. It is important to be able to tolerate this diversity and refrain from putting others down because you don't agree with them. There is no requirement that we all agree on the specifics. We engage in dialogues to explore our diverse outlooks and to find common ground where it exists. Be open to new and different ideas and don't try to enforce your ideas on everybody else. Do not misuse the common resources of all members for self-serving needs, but be aware that there has to be room for everybody. Aside from that, anything goes."

Here is another inpersonal quote:

"A key is just a bunch of little angles, in the right combination." – JP Warren

So, anyway, the topic of this post was:

What is it that is not happening?

I am not going to repeat the questions, they are listed (one through five) on the post above.


30 Oct 2005 @ 18:52 by jstarrs : You might like to reread my post...
...you're probably missing some things...
Until you give some beautifuly creative suggestions to your own questions, like the wonderful people who've already spent much time answering your rhetorical questions, you're still just trolling empty seas.
Sorry - keep using others quotes.
Others here are getting on with it.  

30 Oct 2005 @ 19:49 by uncleremus : If you don't know what a word means,
look it up:

"A rhetorical question is usually defined as any question asked for a purpose other than to obtain the information the question asks. For example, "Why are you so stupid?" is likely to be a statement regarding one's opinion of the person addressed rather than a genuine request to know. Similarly, when someone responds to a tragic event by saying, "Why me, God?!" it is more likely to be an accusation or an expression of feeling than a realistic request for information."

In essence a rhetorical question is a question to which no answer is expected, or to which only one answer can be made.

Compare this to the following:

"Are people leaving NCN? Why? Who are those people? Who are the people who are staying? Are some of the people who are staying in any way responsible for the departure of the people who are leaving? If so, it this the result of an intentional effort on their part? Is this part of a deliberate strategy? Is there any pattern there? Any button pushing?"

Those could be construed as rhetorical questions (if one is implying that the answers to the questions are obvious and need not even to be asked - are the answers obvious, jstarrs?).

Considering what the topic is here ("An invader can poison a convivial community, it cannot conquer it,") those questions are not rhetorical questions, they are very specific indeed, and certainly deserving, I think, of being examined closely in search of some answers---"except as we may cherish our ignorance and conspire with ourselves to preserve it."

There have been, I feel, some very spontaneous and very sincere comments on this thread, but I don't think, jstarrs, that anyone here, "has already spent much time answering my questions." Not the questions, per se. Nor am I demanding that anyone does - right now, right this minute (Are you kidding? - This is not the inquisition, lol.) Nor am I going to respond to your demand that I "give some beautifuly creative suggestions to my own questions."

If the questions offend you, no one is forcing you to answer them, and if you dislike my blog so, no one is forcing you to participate to this thread, either.

The questions stand, and no amount of bullying, or attempt at diversion, on your part, is going to change anything to that.

Diversions can be a useful tool when arguments fail you, or when you feel uncomfortable with the drift of a conversation. Is this post making you uncomfortable, jstarrs?  

30 Oct 2005 @ 20:05 by jstarrs : lol!
listen... "a rhetorical question is one asked solely to produce an effect"
You have your effects to a certain extent but I doubt people will be interested in your rhetoric...
Have you thought about coming up with something constructive?
Answering your own questions?
What's your problem?
I'll leave you to ponder on it...Francis  

30 Oct 2005 @ 20:40 by uncleremus : The questions stand on their merit,
and no amount of personal attack or attempt at diversion and obfuscation is going to change anything to that. I think people know enough not to require your services, or anyone's else services, to tell them what post should or should not be of interest to them, or what member of NCN is or is not "getting on with the work" of NCN. As I said, earlier on, this is not the Inquisition, here, and I don't think that your participation as an enforcer on this thread, seemingly directed at the suppression of what you appear to perceive as "NCN Heresy," is really needed. People can think for themselves---especially the NCN community---thank you very much, and most people know what constitutes or does not constitute rhetoric, and they can recognize diversionary tactics and bullying for what they are, when they see them.  

30 Oct 2005 @ 21:51 by vibrani : Answers
I did at least two logs on NCN in the past and it didn't go anywhere, but I'll join in here even though I don't think you ever particpated in my logs.

I joined NCN soon after it began in 1995. Since then I've been involved in most every capacity I could be at NCN, including the salons of old. The salons were generally good, and it seemed that the reason people went was to network, mostly to find someone who could help them make a lot of money. I found there was an "in crowd" at NCN. Even though we were all members, a handful were catering to each other and seeming to share the benefits. If you didn't have big bucks, some people up in the ranks at NCN didn't give you a second thought. And if you had ideas that COULD make something of NCN, they weren't taken seriously, either. Then the salons stopped, projects that began didn't work out, people didn't stay in touch. It was a little disappointing. Flemming had focused on getting large funding, but that fell through. I don't know what would have happened had he received the grant. There were a few physical locations for NCN in the early years, but not enough money to keep them going. There were ideas given that would help members, community, but Flemming admitted he wasn't ready or willing at that time to be involved in them. What would have changed for NCN?

I had several ideas of why NCN does not work. From my observations, people wanted, expected Flemming to be a leader of NCN, after all this place is his site. He wasn't involved and openly stated years back that he doesn't waste his time talking to many of the regulars at NCN as they're somehow below his caliber, his ratings of people. I do understand that one has only so much time and energy to spend online, and we have to choose wisely...but if you snub or alienate your regular members, what can you expect? Most people have the same needs, to have an income, a place to live, food, the necessities, and then there is play time, too. Some people have more time for one of those than others. We all live in different places around the world, in different time zones, that often makes it hard to connect live. Not everyone travels to other countries. So, NCN does its thing - being a cyber community in the way that we create it to be.

Regulars at NCN know who I am. I don't have various aliases at one time, like some members apparantly need to have in order to either hide or trick others. I left NCN a few times over the ten years I've been a member, I changed my ID name, even experimented with seeing how people would treat me with a different name - interesting how names trigger emotions in people. Each time Flemming was informed as to what I was doing and he appreciated that. One bit of advice to old members about new members: Give a new member some space. Let THEM make the first move and ask. Maybe they're not new at all. People added themselves to my contact list as comrades - I didn't know a couple of those people, and some of them were anything but friends of mine. I had people who were suddenly kind to me because I was no longer using the name Vibrani and they hadn't yet figured out or seen that I was the same person. What bullshit that is. So many two-faced people. Why are you playing this game? Why didn't you answer my first question about giving your real name? Is there room for honesty?

The reason for leaving was because of the lack of respect and abusive language, at some points outright slander and lack of compassion, the unwillingness of others to hear and outright hatred because of the articles I posted - yes anti-Semitism does exist at NCN, anti-Americanism exists. The feeling that few people really commuicate WITH another person. It's post and run. I also felt that I was just spinning my wheels here and it was a drain of energy and sometimes even made me physically ill. Each time I started a log I asked people to focus on the topic and refrain from personal attacks - that never worked. Some people NEVER commented to my log. Some people are too afraid to comment for fear of being attacked by other members. Some people can't accept that I don't want to have anything to do with them and that's my right. So I go about my business here - choosing what is a better use of my time and energy with people I feel more connection with.

People have a need to release their hatred, their anger, their pain, as well as their humorous self. Many people speak different languages, and often misinterpret what is being said. Some interpret passionate conversation as something that it's not. People see what they want to see, too. It can be very exhausting to keep explaining what one is trying to say to people who, when it comes down to it, really don't give a shit. NCN becomes that place for expression, and every person has their own ideas of what freedom of speech means, what respect means, and so forth. I'm not afraid of NCN, but sometimes I've been very disgusted and tired with it because it basically doesn't change, because many people don't change. Unless people are aware of their self and working on healing themselves, nothing will change. I see many needy and hurt people at NCN. I see someone who says she doesn't like to get involved in skirmishes and yet remains on the member page as a mediator and someone who created skirmishes in the past - but maybe has learned since then. It is upsetting to me that when I came up with some good ideas of how to help the planet it was ridiculed, and those mocking something that IS working prefer to remain in their victimhood rather than take real action to make a change. NCN is, as I've often said, the microcosm of the macrocosm. There are control games and battles going on here as there are in the outer world.

Why did I return? Because I miss the live interaction with some people I've come to know over the years, some friends, and to see if anything really new is going on, something that I can learn or be part of to make a difference in the world. I don't need this place to express myself, I have my own web site that does the job, I have my published works. But the community involvement is what I want to be part of. I am part of community and make a difference outside of NCN. Do I make a difference here? I am not sure...maybe you can tell me.

What is missing? Maybe the individual healing, maybe not forcing people to anything, maybe leadership, maybe a unified NCN involvement in something in the world along with many separate projects. Maybe nothing is missing. What are your answers to your own questions?  

30 Oct 2005 @ 22:46 by nemue : Understanding
I can't be bothered getting involved in the drama. Regardless the world will change and us along with it. We can be part of it or we can complain about it. We can fight or we can pull in the one direction. It is what we do that is important and I don't care to be held back. To help yourself you have to WANT to help yourself. Many don't - leave them be and ignore them.  

31 Oct 2005 @ 01:19 by uncleremus : Thank you so very much Vibrani,
for the time you took, posting this long and visibly heart-felt comment on this thread. I'll try to respond in kind.

1. Vibrani, you said, that you changed your ID name, even experimented with seeing how people would treat you with a different name, I think you are right, "names trigger emotions in people," so I don't really need to explain to you why some new members, and possibly some returning members, might have chosen to remain anonymous and sometimes choose to join NCN under the guise of a borrowed known fictional name. I don't think there is any trickery involved in that---not when the intent is not to abuse anyone's trust. As it is, one could even say that they are more honest than most, they wear their mask openly and they do not pretend to be anything that they are not. You must have, no doubt, noticed, that Uncle Remus, for instance, doesn't play the "Relationship Index" game and that he is not engaged in any extensive correspondence with any other members. All you see of Uncle Remus is his blog. Although there might arguably be other reasons for it, someone who joins a newsgroup or a cyber community under an alias usually does this precisely for that reason. There is no harm in it. I think the message is clear. It usually means: "this my blog," "who I am doesn't matter," "can we talk about some issues (whatever issues that particular member happens to be interested in, environment, cybernetics, you name it) independently of who I am?" I think we should respect that. I know there are members, here, who would disagree with that, and who think that people cannot have a meaningful exchange unless they know who they are talking to, but different people have different takes on this, and everyone's right should be respected. Besides, do we always really know someone because we have read what is on his or her Profile? If someone who has been posting under a fictional name finds that the kind of project, on which he or she has been working with another member, or a group of other members, requires that more information be exchanged as to who he or she is, or as to what his or her qualifications are, well, there is always time for that, isn’t there? Flemming Funch posted something by Oriah Mountain Dreamer that, I feel, resonates with this at some level: {link:http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000025.htm|Authenticity}.
For some, there might also be an element of game involved, a bit of creative playfulness (you know, white hat, red hat, yellow hat,…,) a bit of poetic shamanism, even, in some ways (some shamanic traditions call for the assumption of a mythical or fictional personality, carefully trained, disciplined, worn like a glove when the Shaman performs - artists sometimes do it, too, for a variety of reasons.) The difference is that the person who is consciously performing, knows that he or she is performing, while there are members who, on the other hand, have been working so hard at their Profile and on "being real," and on who they think they really are, or what they think other members should think they really are, that they sometimes end up performing "being who they are," except that they do not realize that they are performing. Sometimes finding oneself, requires the willingness to lose oneself from time to time, yes?

2. Answering my own questions.

I think I have already addressed some of that in {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v445/__show_article/_a000445-000089.htm|Shunyata}, my previous post:

"I never claimed I had all the answers, and I am certainly not here to tell people, some of whom have been at it for over ten years, system thinkers, programmers, and founder(s) of NCN, how I think things ought to be done here at NCN. My post presents just some questions----an invitation to reflect about things, and invitation to think further. I didn't seek the questions, they came to me. I could have kept them to myself, but, as it is, I have decided to share them with others."

Flemming Funch [2001-12-06] said it this way:

"What I am looking for is a better global brain - a better way for us to be connected together, where our collective intelligence will tend to emerge."

"I'm looking for a structure of inter-connectedness where more connections add up to more intelligence, rather than more confusion. It would become better when more people participate. Increased diversity would increase the rate of evolution, and make the whole system more intelligent and more stable."

"What I'm looking for is some kind of holy grail of inter-connectedness - some kind of system that will help us being connected in more radically useful ways. "

"What I have is more a question than an answer."

"What can a small group of us consciously and deliberately design that will facilitate the evolution of all of humanity into a mature and sustainable species, in harmony with itself and its environment? "

Let me assure you that if the answers were easy ones, you would have been the first one to know, Vibrani, along with all the active members of NCN, because I would have posted a big ANSWERS post for all to read. Except that I do not believe I have all the answers, besides I understand that "Big Answers" posts are not very popular on these parts. I also know that others in the past have expressed an interest in that subject, and that their interest was not very well received, or that there was no follow up, or no real interest in the topic. Which is OK, of course, people are here for different reasons, doing different things. But, I think you will agree with me that before anyone invests any amount of energy on that kind of research one would be well advised to ensure that there is a real interest in it, and that one is not putting a bunch of work into a project that will be of no avail. Furthermore, I am not convinced that I am the best-qualified person to handle that kind of a project. But, I would assume, that certainly, in view of the current membership there must some members here with the right profile who would consent to be drafted to work on such a project if there were given a clear mandate to do so. (The kind of projects and capabilities one would ordinarily come to expect from a network like NCN.) One problem I was hinting at in {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v445/__show_article/_a000445-000089.htm|Shunyata} is that I think NCN has become too much of a monolithic network (structure wise, I am not talking about the membership, here, ok?) and that, maybe, the next step ought to be for NCN to become a Network of Networks (my space station analogy, and also my concern about NCN single point failure vulnerability under NCN's present status.)

3. Do you make a difference here, Vibrani?

This is not for me to judge. I am sure we all do, in small and large ways. I do not usually quote the Bible, and I know how you feel about religion, so I’ll ask you to bear with me on that one, and to look at this as you would just any other story, had you been told that it came, maybe, from a children’s stories book, or some obscure folkloric tradition (which in some ways, it has.) It is a beautiful story. A well known parable actually:

"The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."  

31 Oct 2005 @ 03:05 by vibrani : Thanks
Thanks for taking the time and care to write back, Uncle Remus.
Thanks also for the link to the discussion on the Shunyata page,
I hadn't read that before, and there's a lot there to get into
so I need a bit of time on that one.

1. On IDs at NCN - for the most part I agree with what you have written.
There were times at NCN when there was intentional deceit that
was used to hurt members. I found out that some people claimed they were
what they weren't, who they weren't. So I've learned to be more wary about
trusting, and that is something I didn't think I'd have to deal with at NCN.
Why? I guess I was naiive. I thought somehow people who are attracted
to this place would be beyond the need to fake who they are...I was wrong.
I can understand people not wanting to have their "real names" on the internet
for many reasons. I like to know that the person I'm interacting with is being authentic,
no matter what nickname they use here, and that if I do ask for their real name they
won't feel afraid to share it privately, just as I'm not afraid to openly say who I am.
If I am to meet that individual in person, I sure do want to know who they are.

2. So the parable you posted is likened to the idea of NCN providing the seed and we are
the sowers? Am I understanding you correctly? Doesn't the seed in the ground
pretty much take care of itself, do what's it's there to do, provided it's fertile
and there is an acceptable amount of rain (that comes from the clouds, not from man)?
If we want to make a farm, then of course that requires a plan and work.

I think Mark had the best ideas I've ever heard for a global brain but
to get something like that off the ground requires many people to be involved
and help out. Why doesn't it happen - that's what I want to know. When
presented with these great ideas, who and what is stopping them from
manifesting? I know we could all benefit from the plan and people will
be thrilled once it is up and operating, but to get it there and to expect
that NCN will help out hasn't happened. Maybe that's in part due to the
funds and people with various skills and in locations around the country
or globe unaware of it or not willing to put the time and energy into it?
That leads some to think that this place is mostly talk and little action.

3. What I would like to see is something that I know some people here
will cringe at, but I can't see any other way of doing it, is to have someone
in government with the ability to legislate, or someone like Bill Gates or
Steve Jobs, or a big shot in the film industry, or a charitable foundation,
connect NCN with the right people, as a member here - or as a consultant
in some capacity. The individual in government would have to do this pro
bono for the time-being, and not to be misconstrued as being "bought" by NCN.
We need someone with enough uummph and connections to connect us with
those who can make these ideas into a reality, and the foundations can fund it.
Has Ming recently applied for grants? Is there a proposal written out that
can be used? The final question is - will Ming support these ideas, or do we even need his
approval? NCN is still his site.

I think if we decide to undertake a major project that is
brought about by the members of NCN, it should take top
priority on this web site and be sent out to all the members
to see who can help make it happen, who will do what. Not
just leave it up to a member here or there to figure all
that out for themselves. After all, this is a network...
let's network it.  

31 Oct 2005 @ 03:53 by vibrani : Even he's in on it
Maybe he'd help?

31 Oct 2005 @ 10:22 by jazzolog : Mark's Big Project
I certainly am not someone to speak for Mark Smollin nor maybe even is his wife Martha Borders, both of whom possibly still look in here from time to time. If there's anyone capable of speaking better for Mark and his last project attempt here, including Remus (who sometimes reminds me of Mark but I'm tending to go along with Gea on this identity thing---which is important to me only in terms of historical context to NCN: he or she clearly has been around), I hope that person will step forward and do so.

I don't recall Mark's suggestions being called the Big Brain or whatever, but I do remember that his last attempt bogged down in technical aspects for which he needed Ming's cooperation, time, knowledge and control. Now Mark and Ming at the time were living in close physical proximity, so they even could get together in the same room and just negotiate it out. As I remember, and this was only a couple years ago, they did try that. Mark, as have so many others, became frustrated with the communication attempts and a perceived stubborness on Ming's part that just wouldn't budge from his "original vision." I just am reporting and have not experienced this trait at this kind of level, from a webmaster whose career history includes counseling people at some depth. But Mark left over this, as have 2 or 3 other dynamic and technically sophisticated members, who tried out ideas of design and interaction with Ming and got nowhere except into an argument.

One time Ming did email me an idea and sample he had of a new design for NCN. This is when he still lived in the US, so it was a couple of years ago also. I'm not a techie at all, but I thought what he sent was a great improvement and I said so. He said he would get the help of a boy he knew and start work on it. Nothing happened.

Another time he said he was going to send out a survey he had made to all NCN members on how we can improve our involvement. I was elated! I couldn't wait. I kept posting my breathless anticipation here and there for a year, and eventually my reminders were mocked by others or I was accused of attacking the man personally with my writing. (I have made fun of him sometimes.) But again nothing happened.

In the meantime, I've come to do what the other members of some longer time have done. I mind my own business, avoid the fights if possible, and create my own little civilization as best I can here and there and at my Log. It's a lot lonelier here than it used to be, when a few of us were working together to do what we thought would help out, but I still like so many of you and love the beauty and creativity of the Logs that I come back every day. I think we don't need a "leader" so much as an attentive and somehow-involved webmaster, preferably in a devoted manner.

What do you think dearie, is it time to bite that poisoned apple? Happy Halloween folks!  

31 Oct 2005 @ 10:39 by vibrani : Only Mark can speak for Mark
I mentioned Mark's plan because he and I (and Martha) got together a couple of times in the last year and talked about it at length. Mark does not come around NCN any more...nor does Martha, and I don't know if or when they will return.  

31 Oct 2005 @ 12:02 by scotty : NCN
isn't a 'community' ! {http://www.answers.com/topic/community}
( "When people describe a group as a community, it typically implies or evokes some sense of harmonious, egalitarian social form sharing their values and lives." )

Coming here with 'expectations' is a sure-fired way to become disappointed.

IMHO the best that can happen here is that one can 'share' thoughts ideas etc - sync takes care of the rest !  

31 Oct 2005 @ 18:53 by uncleremus : NCN

Here are a few other definitions for "community":

- A group of people living in a particular local area

- Residential district: a district where people live; occupied primarily by private residences

- In ecology, an assemblage of populations of different species within a specified location in space and time.

I think when people talk about community on this thread, they mean it loosely (I know I do,) and, more likely, the above definitions are more along what they mean (that is: "a group of people sharing the same network," as opposed to "an egalitarian society.") I believe that there are strongly individualistic members who feel very strongly about this, and who would balk at the idea of NCN being any other way. And I agree with them – but I disagree with the methods of the self-appointed vigilantes among them who seem to have made it their job to sow disruption wherever and whenever they can in the name of their misguided ideal. NCN is about plurality, interaction and self-organization, it is not about keeping NCN free from people organizing themselves or developing for their own purpose their own organizations on the network, if they see fit (just so long as they are not threatening to take over or attempting to prevent others from organizing themselves as they see fit, too.)

Scotty's point about expectations is a good one. But, then again, this is the {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v445/__show_article/_a000445-000072.htm|light on the porch} that has been turned on. NCN is nothing BUT about expectations. The "people who are changing the world," remember? "We are the New Civilization" is a very powerful magnet. I think it would be disingenuous to turn such a light on, and then, as people are beginning to flock here, to just say that their expectations are too high. A light can be like a lighthouse, a tall structure topped by a powerful light used as a beacon, to aid navigation, so that people can "do their own thing," or it can have the opposite effect if improperly taken care of, like a fire lit on a foggy coast where it is liable to cause some shipwrecks instead of being a guiding light.

Sure the intro makes it clear that: "NCN is just another communication channel for what you do, or for what you might do. You won't get any instructions for what you're supposed to do. What you do is what YOU do." Which is an excellent premise, and I think is as it should be. But the intro also says that "you might find assistance and fruiful associations that will help you find what YOUR work is, and how you can do it more effectively, and with people you care about," and I think that, as others have already pointed out on this thread, is very much part of the reasons why most people join NCN, in the first place. This is why it is unfortunate that this also happens to be the part, which in my opinion, and in many other people’s opinion too, is not happening---not happening on the scale one would expect it to be happening after 10 years of existence (an eternity in Cyberspace.)

(Disclaimer: Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that no amount of interaction is happening. I know there are people who have found people they are happy to interact with. Some collaborative projects, here and there, taking place. There are people also who are just happy to use this network to run their blog. Hosting blogs is one thing at which NCN excels. If you want to ensure your blog has a high visibility on the internet, this is another thing that NCN does very well.)

The intro says: "you might find assistance and fruitful associations that will help you find what YOUR work is, and how you can do it more effectively, and with people you care about." And this is not happening. Not on the scale it could be happening. Not across the spectrum of activities and area of interactive specializations it could be happening, not to the level of expertise it could be happening. I understand that some people have found like-minded people they interact with and they are happy with that, and this is good and as it should be. But the reverse is also true. And that is maybe something that needs to be looked at. NCN makes it clear that "it is not an organization. It is a database of people and a lot of facilities intended to help people find what they need and collaborate with others when appropriate." Yet, the truth of the matter is that NCN has a humongous BLIND SPOT, in that regard. Huge segment of the world population are just simply not represented at NCN. I am not just talking about race or culture, but also professional expertise and interest, especially professional expertise and interests. This has, very unfortunately, been contributing to the misperception that NCN is a "community" (in the sense Scotty defined it,) I even recall finding it mistakenly defined as a "New Age" community somewhere on the web. The truth of the matter is that some people---many people---do join NCN and leave. Some of them are driven away, even. Purposefully so, in some instances, as it would appear.

Are people's expectations of NCN too high? I don’t think so. And, if people expectations are high, whose fault is that? Doesn’t the intro say:

"In NCN you will find many people who are visionary leaders in their fields, who head organizations, who are very well connected, who inspire many thousands of people. Don't underestimate the value of being well connected. The major movements towards a better world are very likely to be led by somebody who's a member of NCN, or some of their close associates or friends. And by all being inter-connected, our cumulative effectiveness is so much higher."

Scotty said in her comment above that "the best that can happen here is that one can 'share' thoughts ideas etc - sync takes care of the rest!" I’ll have to disagree on that point. "Sync" is the general idea. And maybe "Sync" will one day do the trick when and if the right elements are present. But, as things stand, "Sync" is not making it happen. Because if it had, one would expect that after 10 years of existence, NCN would have made some significant break through by now.

Maybe NCN's expectations (the way NCN has been defining and promoting itself) are the ones that are too high. I don't know, my opinion is that high expectations are rather a good thing: "Aim for the stars and maybe you'll reach the sky," the saying goes. For better, or for worse, it is very much part of the dynamic that has been attracting a lot of people to NCN. I think the founder(s) of NCN need to remain aware of this fact. I could point to many elements (from NCN mission statement to the random quotes on the Member start page) by which that idea (along with other many inspirational concepts) is supported, encouraged even. And, well, maybe NCN needs to be reminded that what is true for its members is also true for itself as a network and as a supporting and supportive structure.  

31 Oct 2005 @ 20:30 by vibrani : Community
We speak of community either very locally or generally. We can say the "medical community" and that means people anywhere working in that field. Community is something that connects and holds people together through common interest, work, residing, and that can be cyberspace just as well.  

1 Nov 2005 @ 10:16 by jazzolog : "Defining And Promoting"
Remus seems to suggest "the way NCN has been defining and promoting itself" hasn't been realistic and therefore a problem, but quickly dismisses the notion. Like the apparent ruling majority here, and the definite controlling webmaster, he thinks the open-ended, laissez-faire atmosphere is best. But does NCN promote itself---and how could it? A network doesn't promote itself. CNN doesn't promote itself. People do it...and people promote THEMselves. Is NCN laissez-faire or is it a benevolent dictatorship? Is this atmosphere true freedom or tired neglect? Mark Smollin has been quoted all over the place in this thread, but let's remember his summary of the site: it's just an overblown chatroom.

Now why do people come here to join? How they get here is interesting, but what do they say they want? Somehow a person or a machine (does anyone know which?) puts up "A message from a recent new member" on the Activity page. Scroll down to the bottom and click the link to see for yourself. I don't know how it is or with what regularity the message from a new member changes, but the one I'm looking at now is from someone called brigzha, who joined the other day, and his message is as follows:

"I'm seeking help with addiction. I'm also looking for rituals that will increase my spiritual awareness and open my consciousness to the divine. Is there a process to finding the actual identity/name of my spiritual protector and guide (guardian angel)?"

I'm glad this feature is there, I read it often, and sometimes I contact new people. Both Shakti and Silvia even have organized sort of welcoming committees through independent initiatives. Ming says some kind of note gets emailed to each new member (though I don't remember getting one). Brigzha's expectation and hope in joining us is serious...as are most of the messages you'll read on that page every day. People come here hoping to meet others involved in dedicated purpose. Message after message says it. No one says he or she is looking for self-promoting bon vivants gadflying around the Internet. I've never read one of those messages that says, "O goody, a site where I can build my own little world in one of these Groups or Logs!" Yet every thread I read in one of these NCN discussions ends up dominated by those who have opted for that aspect of the site---those FEW who are content, out of a database now numbering 10,004 from 135 different countries.  

1 Nov 2005 @ 12:49 by swan : I have been involved in this kind of
conversation a number of times since I joined. I can only comment from my personal experience as a member, therefor I see no purpose in mentioning other members and their experiences. The day I joined I took an active roll and put up a newslog. I wanted to meet other people and I found that connected me quickly with other members who left comments. The newslog, because it gets a great deal of internet exposure is a way to connect with a lot of people and change the world, maybe just a little, maybe a lot, but any change for the better is a step in the right direction.

If one wants things to happen they need to take an active roll in making that happen. I know there are now over 10000 members and if they each had taken an active roll and added what only they could add to the site, NCN would be a different place. I can't say it might be better to have 10000 members active on a regular basis, maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but it sure would be different!

Over the years I have created numerous groups that were active for times, things change and the groups change. A site mission can be anything it wants but it is up to the members to give it life by being involved and activating the vision. My personal vision/goal was to share my writing with people and the newslog has been a great vehicle for that. I felt I had something to say from my own experience that might help someone else and part of my path is sharing what I have learned along the way. I also wanted to connect with people around the world who are of like mind. I have done that and am still connected to a hand full of people who I dialog with on a regular basis. I have personally met 9 members because I made arrangements to do so when I was traveling to places where they live. I have met people I would never have met and had experience I would never have had if not for NCN. There are still some people I plan to meet someday who are members. I welcome anyone who wants to stay at my place when they are in Minnesota.

My point is, nothing happens without action and each member chooses the level of his or her envolvement. The beautiful of this website is you can do that. I have never felt the presence of a "controlling webmaster" and have always been able to do what I needed to do here. If I touch one person with what I have said or done, I am changing the world. My personal work has been that of "knowing myself", which, as I have said before is foundational to being able to be present for others. I have come to a point where my work is to support and assist others and I know I could not do that without having looked deeply into myself. If I can't give love to myself first, there is nothing I can give to others. So personally I believe a new civilization is built one person at a time, by taking an active roll in making change happen. NCN gives us a place to do that.  

1 Nov 2005 @ 21:17 by uncleremus : People in Quandaries
Hi Swan, thank you for your comment.

I am aware that you are mostly responding to what jazzolog is saying in his comment above, and when something like that happens (a welcome thing, and all part of the flow) I usually try, as a moderator, not to interfere too much (even when I don't always agree with all the specifics of such or such comment,) I try to let things go, and let people sort things out for themselves, it sometimes yields positive and unexpected results. But, I feel that things are, yet again, turning a bit into a pointless game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, so I'll take this as an opportunity to clarify a couple of points:

1. As I did already mention somewhere on {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v445/__show_article/_a000445-000089.htm|Shunyata}, I have done my homework, so, yes, I know precisely the kind of conversations to which both Swan and Richard are referring (some of them anyway.) What is most striking to me is that there seems to be a pattern there that is beginning to look very much like a weird ghost story, something a bit akin to what is called "residual haunting":

"This is where a specific event has been imprinted and caught in time. The event witnessed is very much like watching a small clip from a movie, over and over again...it's very repetitious and does not vary in any way at all. This form of haunting is not interactive with the living...In fact, the energy or scene you are viewing doesn't know you are there at all…they are only re-enacting a specific event and it may appear they are looking right at you, when in fact they are not."

Typically, the thing that happens next is that, regardless of what the actual context of a new post having to do with NCN happens to be (and regardless of how cautious one is in introducing the topic, with some careful disclaimers, and all) some well meaning people (and at times, too, some not so well meaning people, eager to add to the obfuscation - they are easy to recognize, they are the one who go "yeah, that's right," "you go girl," etc.) begin posting "testimonies" on how great NCN works for them and whathaveyou...

It's a little bit like, I don't know, say, someone has built a big building dedicated to, say, a New Culinary Experiment, and, well 10 years latter, some people are looking at it, to see where they are with the experiment (which, in my opinion, is always a healthy thing to do---nothing treasonous about this at all) and, well, some people observe that the building is not functioning at optimal capacity, say, there are many culinary schools that are not represented, many culinary skills that would be an asset to the experiment are not present, many people out there who could be an asset to the experiment are conspicuously absent, the New Culinary Experiment is misrepresented, some people, to whom the New Culinary Experiment could be of interest have not heard about it, or they are under the mistaken impression that the experiment is just about, say, Chinese Cuisine, etc. (I could go on - I don't need to) all of which are all serious problems, some of which the Webmaster has himself acknowledged. And, then, someone (not you, Swan,) steps in and say something like "Shut-up and just cook, you $%#@ - While you are busy talking there are people doing some real cooking here," and then someone else comes in and say "that's right, what I do here, is Italian cuisine (or whatever,) and I do it well, and thanks to the New Culinary Experiment I have been able to learn a lot about Italian cuisine and pick a few tricks from other culinary traditions, too, and share what I know with others." This is all good and well, but I don't think that I need to explain here that those kinds of comments are not really addressing the situation such as it had been laid out at the beginning of this example. The idea that everyone here who is interested in the New Culinary Experiment should just busy themselves and do their own kind of cooking, and that if everyone does, it will all happen, is not new, it's one of the original premises on which the New Culinary Experiment was launched. There is no use repeating it over and over - repeating it, has not made it happen. Not in the last 10 years. And it is probably not going to make it happen in the next 10 years, either---not if nothing different is done. I am glad that some things are working, and that some people are doing well with their Italian cuisine, or whatever it is they are cooking (I have read some of your blog, Swan, and I like what you do,) but, still, the building is not functioning at optimal capacity, there are many culinary schools that are not represented, many culinary skills that would be an asset to the experiment are not present, many people out there who could be an asset to the experiment are conspicuously absent, the New Culinary Experiment is misrepresented, some people, to whom the New Culinary Experiment could be of interest have not heard about it, or they are under the mistaken impression that the experiment is just about Chinese cuisine, etc. I certainly agree with you that "If one wants things to happen they need to take an active role in making that happen." My point was, that what is true for the culinary chefs is also true for the administrators of the building and the system thinkers of the New Culinary Experiment. If one wants the New Culinary Experiment to take off, really take off, and not just serve as a convenient interactive place to just a few of the culinary chefs already present who have been using the building for the last 10 years or so, then something else needs to be done. If the New Culinary Experiment was doing things right, more culinary chefs would feel like "taking an active role in making things happen." And more importantly, more culinary chefs would think, "yeah, that's right, the New Culinary Experiment is an adequate place for me to take an active role in making things happen."

2. I am not sure how this came up, or what it is about, but for what it's worth, I have never felt the presence of a "contolling webmaster" either .  

1 Nov 2005 @ 22:00 by swan : Actually I was commenting on your
article whose title is " Who Is Afraid of NCN". There was also mention of "NCN cannot be conquered, but…it can be poisoned. Poison? Is this what has been happening to NCN?" and those where the things I was thinking about when I wrote my comment, and not just a reflection on what Richard has said.

Rather than reflect on what has not happened at NCN, or what is wrong with it I would love to hear what you propose be done differently. Why not look ahead with fresh eyes rather than back. You have only been a member of this site for a couple of months, or a couple of years, who knows. Your creative ideas about what to do to bring this website to its greatest potential would be wonderful to hear.

As a member with the technology at your fingertips, and you appear to have it masterfully at your fingertips, why not create a project and see what happens.  

1 Nov 2005 @ 23:32 by uncleremus : Swan,

Have you read the thread?

Again, I don't particularly see how reflecting on what has or has not happened at NCN can be a bad thing. I would have thought it to be a rather healthy thing to do. The opposite, like the avoidance of the topic or attempting to suppress those who talk about it, on the other hand: not too healthy, if you ask me. Who is afraid of NCN, indeed.

"Looking ahead with fresh eyes" is exactly what this post and the other one before it, on a related topic, are all about.

You know, Swan, I think I have been bending backward here in an effort to address as civilly and extensively as possible many of the comments that came up on this post----some of which were very relevant and very interesting, and some others which were, well, let's just say, of a less civil nature----I am not going to repeat myself endlessly on some of the topics I have already covered here (some of them several times, already). I don't care how long you have been a member of NCN, Swan, I am sure you are a nice person, but, please, do not patronize me, and do not tell me how I should conduct or should not conduct myself at NCN.  

2 Nov 2005 @ 08:56 by jazzolog : The Controlling Presence
I've often thought it would be really cool to have some kind of search engine for this site, including the chats, so that links could be located and displayed rather than points of view necessarily written out over and over in various discussions like this one. I think I must have suggested it a couple times. If either of you---or anyone else---agrees such a feature could really streamline research at NCN, would you attempt to facilitate it please? Let's see, how would you go about that? I mean, we can do anything we want, right?  

2 Nov 2005 @ 10:07 by jobrown : Let's face it.
What really is wrong with the New Civilization Network is its name! The name implies that this is a Forum where people are welcome to share and discuss NEW ideas for a NEW -better- world-wide Society and not just remain a Haven for all the world's Mr Bellamy's... ( remember Upstairs/Downstairs? )
But NEW Civilization Network IS CONTROLLED and kept in short leash by these "bellamies"; the Illuminatis, through their kings/ queens and all the lackies, and nothing really NEW is allowed by these controllers of which... ah well... she( & her court /supportgroup) knows who she is -and we all do! No bones about it.
If New Civization ( Network ) had a different name; Let's say Mira's Court for instance, there would be no trouble at all. People would learn the first time they got scolded by the Ruling Queen, that they are in the wrong Quarters and they would move away much faster. Then the Illuminatis could have the site and we , who know the Cosmic Truth about the Planet and her true destiny would find other avenues where to work for the New.
What is hard to understand is this long tolerance that the Owner of the Web-site has and has had for this kind Take-over of his assumably originally noble idea to open up and host a Forum that would promote the New and stop supporting the Age old agenda of a system that is doomed to fail by its own lack of Logic!
Why this is this OK,by the Owner, is a mystery bigger than any other mystery on this Planet!... especially since the ruling queen has her own website that is "doing quite well" ! Why not just be there and leave the New Civilization Network alone to do what so many people are lead to think it is supposedly meant for; networking for something genuinely NEW... that actually COULD save the Planet from the looming third worldwar (and so much more) all in harmony with the Illuminatis inability to think and see clear and logic, all in harmony with Illuminatis sick thinking that War is Peace, Hate is Love and Poor is Rich, Sick is Healty etc, etc! Maybe time for NCN members to get familiar with Illuminatis REAL agenda! Of course. That would quickly leave NCN very desert like, when a mass exodus would be the order of the day; its members moving to another website where NEW sustainable life /living is taken seriously and being worked on by the members daily to the delight of all involved -without interference of needing the "Queen's" permission to express one's insights!  

2 Nov 2005 @ 11:59 by swan : Who ever you are,
you are very testy and you are not bending over backwards to accomidate comments you are bending the comments in fancy metaphor to make people look wrong from making such comments. I don't feel you are open to what anyone here has to say. I did not tell you how to conduct yourself I made a suggestion as to how to find out if a new direction would work.
And Yes, I am a very nice person.
With this comment I am duct taping my hands to my desk so I can't comment anymore in your log. Have a wonderful day.  

2 Nov 2005 @ 14:00 by scotty : Funny how
Swan always seems to have a roll of Duck tape handy !! :)  

2 Nov 2005 @ 16:44 by uncleremus : jazzolog - Search Engine idea
I don' t have the technical expertise, so I don't know how feasible that would be, but, yes, this seems like something that could be very, very, very useful, actually. I don't know how other people go about this, there are many different ways to do this, none of them necessarily better than the others, but my preference before I write a post is to do some {link:http://mason.gmu.edu/~montecin/nclc-cybercul-assign.htm|research} on how the topic has been approached before, and find out some of the input that was generated, and so on, in order to try to avoid, as much as possible, the kind of repetitions and aimless wanderings Richard is talking about in his comment----and I do it as much for those reasons as I do it out of respect of other people on the network who might have devoted considerable time and energy to the topic. So, yes, a wider encompassing local Search Engine is an idea I can totally relate to. As far as NCN is concerned, I have been able to appreciate some of the features already available to facilitate this kind of research (and which tells me that someone at some time had put some serious effort into it,) but those few tools that exist here have become limited by today’s standards and can only get you so far. Ultimately, I found I have been able to get better results using Google as a search engine by entering the words "New Civilization Network," or the title of any given NCN blog, in combination with a keyword, or a string of keywords related to the topic I was researching. But, even that has its limits. I think, Richard’s point is a very good one, because I do not think that being a long time member of NCN should be a prerequisite to be in the "know" of what has or has not been said in the past on any log or on any chatrooms, on any given subject (the ones that are public, of course.) Any new member, serious about a topic, should be able to do just that at any time, without having to be dependent on the good-will of his or her elders, or without having to sink the kind of time I had to put into my researches. This is an important point, because, in my opinion, this is what networking in the Cyber Age is all about, otherwise, well, otherwise what we have is more like a club, then, isn’t it, which I am sure also has its charms, which some members might find familiar and comforting, but is not what most people expect when we talk about such an inspiring concept as a New Civilization Network.  

2 Nov 2005 @ 17:17 by bushman : lol
Cyber duct tape :} I have to say, that NCN is more like a resource wearhouse, a kind of google search engine sort of. Before I found NCN , the Lost Tribe was just a chat room with open topic, no rules other than play nice. The whole point of it was to get people to set up thier own thing and fan out, we had 500 members, or patrons, because we ran on the idea of the "we are" mission statment, the Lost Tribe chat basicly was the lobby that got you to the right people for the topic your intrested in, we ended up with maybe 12 chat rooms focused on a specific topic, like NCN, the Lost Tibe chat really didnt do anything, but divert people to specific chat rooms run by other members of the Lost Tribe chat. So my personal view is that this is the central hub of a much bigger wheel, NCN was not designed to be the wheel but the center that holds the wheel on the cart. I like to think my news log and it's connection to my web site as well the Lost Tribe work group/chat, are only just one spoke connecting the central hub to the wheel. Awheel is not very efficiant if all its mass is at the hub, think about it, what happens when a hard small wheel hits a bump? The idea here being the farther from the hub the tread is the bigger the wheel, the bigger the wheel connected by long flexable spokes going over the same bump, well we wouldnt even notice that bump. I like the NCN search engine idea Jazz:} that would let us visualy see the connecting spokes and how long they are. Kind of like useing the google touchgraph browser, that shows you the connections of any public access website. I think I got a pic of NCN.

2 Nov 2005 @ 23:16 by uncleremus : Moderator Intervention

A dispute of a personal nature between some members of NCN had developed here over some accusation made in reference to one member of this network by another member, in which the former member's name was used explicitly in the latter member's comment. The dispute degenerated into an argument with more back and forth accusations of a derogatory and possibly slanderous nature, which ultimately prompted another member of this network to request of me that I consider removing my blog from being publicly accessible until the dispute could be resolved.

Incivilities are an irritating distraction from the discussions taking place here. It's like trying to watch a show when two or more members of the audience in a row in front of you are insisting on having a loud argument or a fist-fight. In that situation, typically one would expect a usher to come over and ask them to be quiet or leave.

The problem is that I don't feel like I am or should be a usher, and I do not believe in censorship, so this is very awkward for me. Like almost everyone here, I would prefer an environment where moderators intervene as little as possible. Furthermore, I cannot be here all the time, I work for a living, and I do have a life outside of NCN, and other interests as well, as I am sure everyone else, here, also does, so I cannot act as a full time moderator and it is really an imposition on my time.

Those are the actions I have taken on this thread:

1- I think Blueboy has a right to express his opinion on how he feels about some of the dynamics he feels are at work on this network. So, I will not be deleting his comment. I have, however, xxx-out the name Blueboy was referring to in his comment.

2. I have taken a snapshot of the part of the thread in which names of members are explicitly referred to in connection with Blueboy's comment.

3. That segment of the thread has been removed from this log

4. I will be posting the snapshot that was taken at an address undisclosed to the general public, a message will be sent privately to the members originally involved in that particular controversy (and to any NCN member interested in that issue) so that they can carry on with it on that new log if they do so desire.

I have done my best here to try to accommodate everyone as best as was possible, if anyone has any objection as to the way this has been handled, feel free to let me know in a private message.

I just so happened to be extremely busy, today, so it might be a while before I can get back to you.

Thank you all for your understanding.  

2 Nov 2005 @ 23:28 by jobrown : So very NEW Civilization!....
NETWORK.... it's more like the NEW WORLD ORDER,that Bush et Co are working in the bigger arena, to hopefully now finally get it all inplace afterall these ca. 5000 years in the making
Like in Good Ol' Inquisition times!.... Thought control plus all other kinds of controll by the SELFPROCLAIMED Entitled ones!
My suggestion is in the Name of ANY fairness to the rest of Makind: change the name of this Web-site to more accurately describe what it really is all about!... It ain't openess and fairness and respect for ALL people and their right to Life in Peace and Harmony, free from genocides, wars etc -as it pleases the New World Order sickos. For crying out loud, has "everybody" forgotten our Socio-Political state we're all living in? Thought controll being implemented DAILY in one more Country and one more and one more, by these people, who have their controllers working NCN too! The Net is full of opposition by private people. Then again; THAT is the idea! This is ONE guaranteed surefire way to get the Third World War going!
I rest my case! Just one example of what goes on here: For instance the plight of Palestinian People; the genocide of them cannot be discussed here because then you're considered a Jew-hater! Geeezzzz! Nor can the plight of the American Natives be discussed, who after all are the ones who endured the BIGGEST genicide EVER on the Planet in our time of history, because then you're considered un-patriotic! God forbid!
To talk about Sustainable Living options ... and now you're looked upon as if your screws were a little loose!To disucc the phoney and extreamly unfair Monetary system is also very un-popular and considred very comme il faut. Any mentions of how to get away from depency of the Corporate world that is killing the Planet is like asking the members to cut off their right arm!.. and so absurd , so it hardly ever leads to any constructive dialogue /excange of success stories of people's efforts, when they found a better, more Life sustaining avenue to get products, normally considered possible to obtain only from big corps. This, I believe is all a result of the members to accept the controll by the Controllers -OR the members really aren't unhappy at all with the direction this World is going!... And that's alright. But to have this all occur inside website that ASSUMABLY wants to poromote and support a new better world for ALL living things -including animals and environment, is very deceptive and misleading.

Keep the Queens and Kings with their Thought controll of all of you, but change the name of the website, so other new people don't have waste their time till torne into pieces by NCN's Thought Patrole and overall APATHY among its members, where a coffee brake with some small talk is preffered to anything really rel; anything that COULD make the World a little better tomorrow than it was today! How about calling NCN for instance: www.Ilikethethingsjustthewaytheyare-andhavealwaysbeen.com  

3 Nov 2005 @ 01:12 by vibrani : Thanks, Uncle Remus
Even though I did not write to you and request you do anything with your log in regards to myself, I do appreciate your attention, wisdom, and action in this matter. (I am not interested in persuing any further talk with that other party about anything, anywhere - as they're not being honest.)  

3 Nov 2005 @ 07:59 by bushman : Hmm
Well, blueboy , I have to say the only way to make the changes in the world you want to see, would mean that the majority lower themselves to thier level and go in guns a blazzing. You cant have instant gratification on a machine, dont you know? I agree, there is a multitude of agendas here, but, I also agree both sides of the middle east follies, and the companies that keep it all going, are insane people with guns, so fair is fair, but moraly I wouldnt want to be at thier level to get what I want. I mean, I have no bones to pick, but a good fire fight might be the only thing left. They are all insane man, all of them, so the only way left to us is to not be them. Do your thing, use the tech to change the world, I do everyday, I rarely make a totaly positive change, lots of times I fail. Shall I blame the machine or myself? If people want to think they are doing something , so be it, they are in very small ways, but no one in NCN has the power to control you in your own log, simple as that, as long as your not hacking, you cant be kicked out of NCN for hateing either, as far as I'm concerned, I say to all those that dont like something someone posts to not read it. Whatever its all just oppinion, oppinion that makes people think about stuff, to make those subtle changes that eventualy will creat a better world. If evolution is an active part of life, then we know subspicies got created and failed, died out to give space for the new stronger and smarter ones. I see this as a natural flow here in NCN, its because we are on the inside that we see things too criticaly, never looking too deep, but looking deeper than most ever will. From the outside however you see that NCN goes far beyond any network on the net, we are litraly connected to the entire world, well we lack lots of stuff from China, lol, but one day that will change too. :}  

3 Nov 2005 @ 10:11 by jazzolog : Thought Control
As editor of the Member News Journal Postings section of NCN's splash page, I'd like to congratulate Remus on his innovative approach to the conflict he mentions above. Coincidentally what we were discussing at that point in the thread were search engines...and it is largely because of that technology that some members approved (in whatever kind of decision process we seem to have around here---and THERE is an interesting topic) maintaining some control, beyond what the Webmaster gets around to do. The control is not on "thoughts", except those that intend the public disgrace of another member by name. Whatever gripe or grudge someone has should be handled in some other way than here, where Google will publish it to a wider circulation than we have and make the accusation available to possible clients and employers. One's only recourse, should that happen, is a libel suit in a court of law---and we'd like to avoid such occurrences.

Generally we've agreed that if a member wants to address a personal issue (s)he thinks is of interest and do it on a Log, you can mount your own Members Only entry at a Log you build. Or of course there are the Chats and emails and the Groups. If a member decides the whole world should know that Joe Blow is destroying NCN, and (s)he decides to put that in his/her Public Log and refuse to take it down, the Webmaster alone has the power to bounce...or Joe can hire a lawyer.

How far a Logwriter can go to edit or delete someone's comment has also been an issue of discussion. IMHO Remus has acted honorably here and is trying to keep the thread going, without junking the whole entry---or even the Log, both of which are other options which some members have pursued in these situations.  

3 Nov 2005 @ 16:09 by uncleremus : Fistfights

Well, I was about to post something like jazzolog has in the above comment, but I see that this has been covered---very adequately so---and in a much more thorough manner than I was about to do.

I'll just add this:

I do not like "moderator Interventions," I think they can be brutal, and oftentimes uncivilized in their own ways. When an argument of a nasty and very personal nature breaks out, I do not take side. I didn't take side in the one that took place on this thread---not with the party that started the whole thing in the first place, nor with the party whose name had been named and who responded to the attack on his/her character, nor with the third party whose name also got dragged into the fight.

All Uncle Remus is saying, here, is, "if you are going to get into a fistfight, please people, take it outside."  

3 Nov 2005 @ 16:23 by scotty : eh oui !
The vacuum created by failure to communicate will quickly be filled
with rumor, misrepresentations, drivel and poison.
– C. Northcote Parkinson, historian  

3 Nov 2005 @ 17:02 by jazzolog : Identities
Another point of contention is a member assuming 2 or more identities at NCN. Here we have a case in point: this Log is being written by someone who clearly has "researched" quite a bit more about the site than is usual or even possible for newbies to do...and it looks as if most commenters (commentators?) here think Remus is a member we know by another nickname. Now comes Blueboy who also seems rather "in the know" about this one and that one, and so speculation steams away as to who this "really" is.

While sometimes maintaining membership under 2 identities can be fun and games, other times the practice is serious and maddening. A few years ago I wrote an essay about doing it myself when I first got into computing. I recommend it only because it shows how far matters can go http://www.upsaid.com/jazzolog/archives.php?min=1056283802&max=1056355539Scroll (scroll down to the Rufus Hoople entry) and actually, in the case of predatory behavior it can get worse.

The fact is the practice is against the rules here, and Ming does his best to detect it...or at least used to. The reason for the rule is precisely what happened on this thread the last couple days. How easy it is to attack someone personally while in disguise---Halloween or otherwise. One thing I hope we'd all like to see in a New Civilization is an effort toward honesty. I wish people felt secure enough just to let us know who you are...and not hide behind a mask or hidden Profile. I think Basho said something like The many masks of monkey mind tell us all we need to know about the monkey.  

3 Nov 2005 @ 17:26 by scotty : Personally
all I can say is yes I did have another one before - which I used to post my paintings in ! That identity no longer exists... and hasn't done for some considerable time now.... certain members might not believe me ... well that's their perogative and concerns me not in the slightest.

I believe it is cowardly to attack someone while in disguise - this was in fact done to me quite recently in my log .
Furthermore - I do not believe for one second that the person being accused of attacking in disguise actually did so ! Just because one doesn't know who is behind a pseudo does not mean that the person using that pseudo is in disguise or wearing a mask for goodness sakes !

I'm big enough to say what I think under my true name SCOTTY and I don't need to hide behind any mask as I'm quite unafraid of anyone here in NCN and totally unashamed to state my opinions openly.

While I tend to be with Richard in his wish that people felt secure enough just to let us know who they are - I can think of several good reasons why people might prefer to remain anonymus.  

3 Nov 2005 @ 18:07 by jobrown : " Who is afraid of NCN?
Not of what NCN is now, but of what NCN can be, and one day will be. IF NOT ON THIS NETWORK, THEN SOMEWHERE ELSE. NCN is here, it is coming and it is coming big:
We are here.
We are waking up now, out of the past, to dream a bigger dream.
We are friends and equals, we are diverse and unique, and we're united for something bigger than our differences.
We believe in freedom and cooperation, abundance and harmony.
We are a culture emerging, a renaissance of the essence of humanity.
We find our own guidance, and we discern our own truth.
We go in many directions, and yet we refuse to disperse.
We have many names, we speak many languages.
We are local, we are global.
We are in all regions of the world, we're everywhere in the air.
We are universe being aware of itself, we are the wave of evolution.
We are in every child's eyes, we face the unknown with wonder and excitement.
We are messengers from the future, living in the present.
We come from silence, and we speak our truth.
We cannot be quieted, because our voice is within everyone.
We have no enemies, no boundaries can hold us.
We respect the cycles and expressions of nature, because we are nature.
We don't play to win, we play to live and learn.
We act out of inspiration, love and integrity.
We explore, we discover, we feel, and we laugh.
We are building a world that works for everyone.
We endeavor to live our lives to their fullest potential.
We are independent, self-sufficient and responsible.
We relate to each other in peace, with compassion and respect, we unite in community.
We celebrate the wholeness within and around us all.
We dance to the rhythm of creation.
We weave the threads of the new times.
We are the new civilization."

The NEW Civilisation / New, higher / Consciousness IS coming and this particular website cannot stop it in any way! Quite the opposite; all the insanity posted here, makes people with a thimble's amount of Intelligence -it doesn't take any more- will have a good laugh everytime they come to this website and read the insanity! And this all makes it that much more obvious HOW the Controllers think they can distract people from the real issues -as is shown by this thread here, giving the Intelligent people one more little insight into what is NOT serving Mankind!
Soon the Planet knows that the Web-site that calls it self New Civilization Network is a bad joke and in reality only meant for rubbing shoulders with other "ducks" in this tiny Pond, as it were. Article topics are most of the time just a means to come in here to get one's ego boosted -or sometimes bruised. GOD FORBID!
Never ever forget again that this site is really only meant for boosting egos! Look at the posts that really does discuss important issues, that really -when taken to Heart- would have the power to change the world a little, to become a litle better for ALL... Those posts are hardly never given any minutes by most members here!... What "kind" of members quit usually? The ones witha Message to Mankind, the ones who really had something of importance and value for building a new -more fair for ALL- Society! This is not a mistake! These people are ousted, CHASED AWAY from NCN. If it isn't the Webmaster,( which we all know that it isn't), then: WHO IS IT? Those members will eventually all go somewhere else -as U.Remus had the foresight and courage to tell us all. He is absolutely right!

How many of you cared to respond and give it any serious thought, to my suggestion -although my suggestion is extreamly valid: Change name of the site to be more adequate to what is really going on and EXPTECED by anyone who enters here, NONE OF YOU... What continued instead, to be the topic: how the dear ego's here must be protected! Not only that, BUT PAMPERED -as in kissed up to!

That you who continued the thread very subtly jump on me, Blueboy, that is not an issue!.... because I'm not the Controller of Topics here, so no need to be on your toes around me, kissing me/my ---! Could that be?

I have e-mails by you guys here on my private comp, where you complain about this very topic at hand: the Controller's BAD influence on NCN. One day I might just do what you all seem to say is OK: post them in my blog here, to refresh your memory, since that you seem to agree being OK!

NCN has just lost another maybe thousand readers, even if they remain members, but who the hell would care to give their precius energy to BS, more than two minutes, just to get a good laugh or drop a tear or two about the madness going on here, when there's a real World/ real Life to deal with outside this site?!?

Soon the whole SANE world will know that the website that calls itself New Civilization Network is a bad joke and sailing under under false flag. Not a boat to jump on! This boat is sinking. I would say in the same pace as the phony Monetary System of the World, which any person with ANY eyes can see is going down, maybe slowly, but surely. (Not only that, but the that is the Big-Money Controllers' PLAN! )
Yes, I know, we are forced to be in the Money Game. I agree. But we can in the meantime build another, more fair Monetary System. The Old cannot keep it away, anyway. One way -or the other, that will eventually come into being. Just like a NEW CIVILAZATION is being birthed, a little bigger, for every passing day.  

3 Nov 2005 @ 18:28 by uncleremus : Identities

I think, I did somewhat address the topic somewhere above at the beginning of this thread, already. So I won't repeat myself.

I agree with Scotty, there can be many good reasons why people prefer to remain anonymous, not all of them have to do with “predatory behavior.”

Case in point:

Sometimes we wear masks and sometimes we wear faces, and sometimes faces are the masks we wear. I do not interact with people based on what mask or what particular face it is they happen to be wearing at any given time. Who people are, manifests easily enough through their behavior (how they interact with others.) What is of interest to me is what people’s intention is and whether what they say is speaking to me, or not. And whether we are going somewhere.  

3 Nov 2005 @ 19:25 by uncleremus : The Big Picture

Ok - I've just finished reading Blueboy's very passionate comment. And, I am kind of blown away by it all, and I am not really sure how to go about responding to this. The thing is that his post is very emotional and there are also people on the other side of the issue (those who say every thing is peachy and who have expressed a desire that the issue be dropped) who, though their demeanor appear somewhat calmer, are just as emotional about the whole thing (I understand some had to use duct tape to restrain themselves).

So, my approach here, would be, CAN WE TALK?

There are a lot of things Blueboy is saying, some of which I understand, and some others which I don’t, probably, because Blueboy is referring to some old NCN history to which I am not privy, and I’ll leave it to other members, who might be more familiar than I am with what he is talking about to respond to his post, if they so desire. Cyberspace is my backyard, and I do spend a lot of time researching what’s going on out there, on such or such site I find of interest but I do not make it my business to snoop into other people’s business.

Just for the record, I do not think NCN is sailing under a false flag. And I do not think that NCN is a sinking boat. But NCN certainly appears to be stranded. This not even a point of contention anymore.

The following statement are taken from {link:http://ming.tv/flemming2.php?did=10&vid=10&xmode=show_article&amode=standard&aoffset=0&artid=000010-000083&time=1090731265|Making NCN work for you and me}. (note: the queries have been added here as an addition and are not part of the original post from which the statements are quoted.)

STATEMENT [Ming]: The intention was for NCN to have many different nodes. Many local groups and many servers that facilitated people's communication. If that isn't there, it is simply because nobody else grabbed the ball.

QUERY: Why has nobody else grabbed the ball? That is the question, isn’t it?

STATEMENT [Ming]: Be aware that NCN is a network…It is not a website. There might be websites supporting the network, and there might be people focusing their energy on keeping the network going. Currently there is only one website, and currently that is very dependent on me.

QUERY: So basically, right now, NCN is not really functioning as the network it was meant to be, it is still pretty much a website, isn’t it? It is a very elaborate website with a lot of nifty tools and facilities where people can connect and try and work together, but it is still pretty much a website, yes?

STATEMENT [Ming]: I own the server this website is on, and I control the programming that makes it run. That is a weak point. The weak point is that there isn't multiple servers controlled by different people, and a system in place so that the network communication continues no matter what part of the network drops out.

QUERY: Is anything being done to try to address the problem?

Clearly, there is a problem, here. I mean if we were some kind of enterprise, and, say, we were trying to generate some business going, and get the enterprise moving, well, the people who launched the enterprise would have already gotten together and asked, ok, well, we are doing a few things right, but the enterprise is not taking off, we are not reaching our audience. What is it that we are doing wrong? How can we reach a wider audience and attract the kind of diversity and talents (a lot of pro-active people doing different things) who will help make this enterprise a success.

I think those are all very legitimate questions, as a matter of fact the whole string of questions is pretty much “the question.”

To be or not to be.
To weave the threads of the new times, or not to weave the threads of the new times.
To be or not to be the new civilization.

I do not think that responses such as:

- "Oh, why don’t you be quite, and just try to do your own thing and see how it works for you?"


- "Well, why don’t YOU grab the ball, and show us how it is done?"

are really addressing the question, here.

Independently of the issue about what the current members of NCN are, or are not doing, and independently of how well the current NCN website has been working for those of the members who are happy with the way things are and have been "doing their own things," (as NCN was meant for them to do) what we are talking about here, is the bigger picture.

And some people will say "Oh, but we are working on the big picture," "one person at a time, we all are, maybe just a little, maybe a lot, but any change for the better is a step in the right direction – this is all we can do."

And, I feel like we are going in circles, here.

I do not think that this is all we can do. The people who launched NCN did not think that this is all we can do. They were much, much more ambitious than that. The question is not about how people are supposed to be busying themselves and use the facilities to do their own things---I think there is information aplenty about that on NCN’s greeting page (the site is very well done in that regard,) the question is WHERE ARE ALL THE PEOPLE?

And all the related questions that come along with it, including whether people have been in the past or are presently possibly turned away from it, and why, and what could in any way be responsible for it.

This is not NCN Heresy, it is common sense.  

3 Nov 2005 @ 22:50 by bushman : Hmm
I think most the people who came here started thier own sites to focus on what ever they are doing. I know a few that operate on Yahoo and rarly come here, mostly because Yahoo offers voice chat and video., some are running or working on indimidia, and lots of other places. They are out there being the tread of the big wheel. An audiance? Id say most the people you dont see here in NCN that are members, used NCN as thier launch pad. They got thier ideas from here, and are useing them out there. I personaly think NCN does and has done exacly as it was designed to do. There just isnt any easy way to follow up on what they have created and what they are doing right now. I do think ming is working on some sort of bookmark page, that can find those members, the question is are you trying to research NCN, or what NCN contributed to the whole of cyberspace? And ultamatly what NCN has contributed to the world of mankind. To me you are preaching to the chior, and maybe need to see NCN with a wider lens. Like a football game, most all the spectators are focused on the action makeing that the center of focus, but there are some spectators focused on the sidelines and some watching the backfield, this is where you must look for the signs, is the team manager wispering in someones ear, whats his face look like, does he look nervose, do we see a player tensing up in the back field, getting ready for the long bomb, or is it a ruse. Thats all up to you to think about and oppinionize, so as to maybe make an educated guess as to the play about to unfold. I mean why do they call it football? Most the time the ball is being carried or thrown, its the same, shall we change the name to say, tackleball? Only because Football is not the best discription of the accual game play? Can football even be considered a game these days?, its more of an institution and a company run business. So the problem here might be that most are just looking at the action and once it move out of the field of view people assume the play is over where in fact it is just out of your line of sight and still goes on. If its audiance you need, I can garentee it on Yahoo. I do what I know how to do, and if I dont know I find someone who does, either to show me how, or to do the job for me, which is very rare, but, it's an opption. Theres something to be said for letting nature take its course, or forcing nature to take its course. Grow a fish fast and you can see thru the meat, let the fish grow on its own, the meat will be solid, full of protine. Instant gratification, lends itself to poor profomance and waste. Did you know you could buy a tree in say a 24in box for 200 bucks that already stands 10ft tall, or you could buy the 1gal container for 6 bucks thats maybe 2ft tall, but as it turns out the small tree will out grow the larger one in 3 years as well the small tree has put down deep roots and has had time to gain strerngth against the winds. The large one will never grow a tap root and will sit there just trying to survive for the first 3 years then only grows feeder roots in the wet zone, never to be able to suport it self. Anyway your doing good things and are makeing changes in the world mind, sure, its a very slow process, but at least we will still be here rooted deep. :}  

3 Nov 2005 @ 23:19 by vibrani : That was true for me
Even though I had just started to get into the internet and get a few of my articles up on another person's site, because I met Vax when NCN began, I was able to get my own site together. NCN and my site kind of interlink because of the spiritual connection. Some people came to NCN when they were seeking out the Celestine Prophecy and looking for an online spiritual group. Anyway, because of NCN, I was able to expand myself around the world. I have visitors now to my site from over 111 countries and get over a million visitors per year (multiply that by ten), so I reach a LOT of people. So in answer to an earlier question about me having any impact from being here, and from the feedback that I've received - hell yes, I do when I look at it that way. I have brought people to NCN and NCN has brought people to me and sometimes we work together, and sometimes in person.  

4 Nov 2005 @ 07:28 by koravya : Into the Thread
Deep into the thread we go, looking for the means to make the dream come true. All kinds of truths cascade in torrents through the waterfall into the pool where all truths merge. This is where we trade thought patterns, coming up against some rough and some very rough indeed scrapings, all the meantime maintaining respect for the essential intentions of the other, otherwise known as trust. So I like to vouch for my sense of teamwork, and I wonder, who are these ten thousand members I never see? All I see or know anything about is this little blog crowd of marvelous complex and emotional minds expressing themselves, ourselves, through this network of correspondences. A few of us have met one another in person, and those events and encounters are beyond speaking about, and other than that, we are involved in a complex abstraction of reading imagined voices into the words we read. We create the New Civilization by creating ourselves into whatever image we have of what we can be, and part of this is expressing ourselves, apart from the issues we have become all too familiar with sometimes, and there is this shout of discontent that what is being done is not enough to keep up with the reach of our vision, and we shout at each other, and search for the rational and creative way to magnify our intention. When the collective intention merges with mutual trust, we will be a bit closer to knowing amongst ourselves what we envision as humanity’s possibility. Had an economics class tonight, Janice and Liliana and Rose and Christina. Got to talk to them all about foreign trade, and foreign exchange, and the balance of payments, and the WTO and the IMF and they were all very interested, and I shared some articles with them from Globalexchange. Then we watched Trading Democracy with Bill Moyers, and they liked that. “Sup. is the word for the day. ***--__-*  

4 Nov 2005 @ 08:50 by judih : korayva, uncle remus & all
"When the collective intention merges with mutual trust." I like that and want to comment on this basic axiom of community identity.

Communities are formed when individuals resonate with one another and come together for the purpose of strengthening individual intentions. As a bonded communal unit, the intention grows in strength and survives for a longer space of time.

As in all new projects, first intentions wear out after a while and then the individuals within the community need to recognize it and step up to reawaken the ideals that first brought them together. This is the time for a 'shock' as some have called it (including G.I. Gurdjieff); a chance to energize and adjust the original intention to suit the changing times.

Currently, i'm working on our Kibbutz' 50th anniversary newspaper. Here we live in a collective, formed with the intention of creating a society where one gives according to ability and talent and takes according to what is required.

This first intention has undergone many transformations over the years but still, after 50 years, we are a viable community.

"Society does not consist of individuals but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand."
(Karl Marx)

Community is as strong as its interrelations. As I've been reading through this thread, the desire to interact is strong, whether it's acceptance, rejection or associative thought.

Here is community. Let us keep our intention strong, together with honesty, respect for others and a willingness to set ego aside in order to build more straightforward paths of communication.


4 Nov 2005 @ 09:36 by jazzolog : Judih
Your comment is music to my ears! Let us all sing our hope together at NCN.  

4 Nov 2005 @ 20:18 by uncleremus : Feedback
Answering everyone individually is turning into a daunting task, here, so I’ll try, instead, do so in a broader sweeping comment pointing out at some of the themes that have emerged, as I see them. I will also try to address some of the recurring points that came up on this thread.

1. Coherence of dialogues (Richard’s search engine idea)

The question is not a new one. Are we always, all, talking about the same thing when we use a word or refer to a topic? Was the topic brought up before? What kind of available input, if any, did it generate? Is any of it usable in a meaningful fashion?

Maybe this is where the kind of search engine, of which Richard was talking earlier, could come in handy, if it were designed in such a way that it could be possible when a topic came up to cross-reference it with what was already available on the network (on other blogs and threads,) so as to ensure a greater coherence, and a better follow-through on some of the issues that tend to come out on such a thread as this one. Frequently, many of the issues that emerge (or re-emerge,) are issues which have been addressed at great length before and which tend to return again, and again, and again, under various forms and from a variety of different perspectives (which is to be expected, of course, and is as it should be on a network such as this one,) but which oftentimes some members will "introduce" as if the issues had never been brought out before, and ignoring---sometimes innocently so, and some other times very deliberately so---- what anyone else might have contributed to the topic at hand, sometimes on the very same thread on which they are speaking (which is not always so good.) There are instances where it doesn’t matter and there are instances where it is a nuisance. It is a nuisance, when it creates a sense of disconnect between related entries (when and where a greater cohesion could be helpful,) and when it causes some topics to wander aimlessly, with people repeating themselves over and over, without any real awareness of---or interest in---what other’s input might have been in the matter. It can become childish when it degenerates into a game of {link:http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v445/__show_article/_a000445-000061.htm|Ting-a-Ling-a-Loo}. And, it is, of course, at its worse when it escalates into a full blown propaganda war, with people talking over one another and studiously ignoring what others are saying.

Take the word "community," for instance, which came up on judih’s comment above (this is just a rather innocent example that I am using here for the sake of convenience – no malice aforethought is implied about judih’s comment or anyone else’s intentions); it came up, as a topic, three times already on this thread: 31 Oct 2005 @ 12:02 by scotty, 31 Oct 2005 @ 18:53 by uncleremus, 31 Oct 2005 @ 20:30 by vibrani

And, of course, it came up, many, many more times than that, on the NCN blogosphere, at large. The following comment comes from Ming The Mechanic:

"It would be somewhat misleading to call something like the New Civilization Network "a community". It is not a community, virtual or not. It is a space where community might happen, and it is a place where one can set up virtual communities, i.e. online groups that people choose to belong to, in order to accomplish some particular aim in some mutually agreeable manner."
---Flemming Funch [21 Sep 2002 @ 22:12]

2. Diversity

Vibrani mentions that "some people came to NCN when they were seeking out the Celestine Prophecy," this is an interesting point because it somewhat relates to the diversity issue and the perception issue of NCN.

Quoting Ming, again. (I know, I’ve been quoting him a lot on this thread. I do so because a lot of what he is talking about makes a lot of sense - and he is the one person at NCN who can speak of those things without being branded with heresy):

"Little things might have made a big difference in what sorts of people mostly moved into NCN. For example, back in 1995 I made a Celestine Prophecy discussion mailing list. It still exists on the server, has hundreds of members, and is still quite active. Because of that, various Celestine Prophecy mailing lists recommended NCN as a good place to take a next step. Which, still today, means that a lot of the new people are folks who're looking to learn more about energy, and it is obvious from many new member comments that they believe this to be a Celestine Prophecy oriented community. Which is fine and great, but compared with the original target, it is a more passive group. Nice and spiritual people, but not the kind of activists, inventors, organizers, systems thinkers, etc, that originally were expected."
----Fleming Funch [24 Jun 2004 @ 16:5]

"Actually there's not particularly overlapping member groups or several networks here. I've thought about things that would go in that direction, but haven't acted on any of them."
----Flemming Funch [13 Jul 2004 @ 06:42]

3. Mixed Metaphors

Some interesting metaphors on 3 Nov 2005 @ 22:50 by bushman: "Let the fish grow on its own, the meat will be solid," "tree has [to be allowed to] put down deep roots," etc.

It somewhat echoes Scotty's position [31 Oct 2005 @ 12:02] that "the best that can happen here is that one can 'share' thoughts ideas etc - sync takes care of the rest!"

My response was [31 Oct 2005 @ 18:53]:

"I’ll have to disagree on that point. "Sync" is the general idea. And maybe "Sync" will one day do the trick when and if the right elements are present. But, as things stand, "Sync" is not making it happen. Because if it had, one would expect that after 10 years of existence, NCN would have made some significant break through by now."

Likewise, allowing the fish or the tree to grow on their own with as little intervention as possible is the general idea. But the tree has not put "deep roots," because after 10 years of existence (an eternity for a cyber tree,) if it had, I believe NCN would have made some significant break through by now.

Furthermore, if you read the quote by Fleming Funch [24 Jun 2004 @ 16:5] (above on this comment,) "little things might have made a big difference in what sorts of people mostly moved into NCN," you come to realize that there was much more to the creation of NCN than just letting the tree grow. People had to be contacted, mailing list were sent, and, well, as it turned out the tree was not properly planted: "compared with the original target, it is a more passive group. Nice and spiritual people, but not the kind of activists, inventors, organizers, systems thinkers, etc, that originally were expected."

So, maybe, the tree or fish analogy are not the best ones for our purpose, maybe the image of a forest would be a better one, or that of an ecosystem---and when an ecosystem is out of balance, because, say, certain species outnumber certain other species, or some essential species are missing altogether, well then I submit that your ecosystem is in trouble.  

4 Nov 2005 @ 20:43 by vibrani : Feedback to your feedback
Diversity is good - but is there a point in some groups or projects when too much diversity isn't a good thing, because decisions are harder to make, the focus could become diluted? People who came to NCN seeking out a Celestine Prophecy type community were disappointed because they hoped would be a place where actual communities were being created with those ideas. What many people discovered was that THEY had to create the community, or find one somewhere already in existence because NCN wasn't that place, in itself. That is why Ming says NCN isn't a community but a network. I still think it is a community, in the sense that it gathers those of like-mindedness, etc., even with all the diversity. How to use that strength, though? What I do see a lot of going on at NCN is people helping people, whether it be getting to the right person or web site. But, even with all the groups here, the groups one can create, it's just not being utilized in the best way, I think, and I already gave some suggestions as to how they can be, so I won't repeat myself. And at the moment, I'm not sure where this thread is going lol.  

4 Nov 2005 @ 21:19 by jazzolog : Fed Up In Feedback
One reason I repeat things in threads like this is because of new members. I'd like a Search Engine to research what the old stuff said, but I wouldn't refer new members to such things. If they want to look for it, fine. But this is now and they are they...and I'd want to hear what this joint has for me...not what the old fuddy-duddies thought before they burned out about prophecies, spiritual dictatorships, and motherships on the other side of the moon.

I remember that thread about Community in 2002 and think I was in it. I think I remember Ming coming in and declaring, of course in a nonheretical way, NCN is not a community. Half the participants in the thread said, Yes it must be so, and crept away into the shadows. The rest of us, me included, shut up about community from then on.

What I think now is this: there are a handful of survivors and a few new and beautiful folks who talk together in this open area (I think that's an official Ming description...so it must be so) of the Logs and Chats...and those Groups that publish their "findings" out to us. I think we're trying something in here...at least some of us. Others are just using the tech as a platform to announce their blogs to all cyberspace. But those who comment and dialogue---we're the people of NCN...and I say we're a community. Many times (and if I had a Search Engine I could show you) I have referred to this open area as a town square. We got a little bandshell, fun & games, and soapboxes for anyone to get up on and tell us their dreams. And since we're from all over the dadgum world, eh Remus?, I just love it! As Swan and others have said, just think of all the people we know now...and if Swan particularly hasn't dived into community here, I'll eat this keyboard. Pass the salsa, please.  

4 Nov 2005 @ 21:43 by vibrani : Jazz
want fries and guacamole with that?  

4 Nov 2005 @ 21:45 by uncleremus : jazzolog - Correction reg. Ming
I feel I need to correct here a possible misinterpretation that seems to have crept in jazzolog's comment, above, as to the reasons why I did quote Ming in some of my comments.

I never meant to imply Flemming Funch is God or that his word is the gospel---and I do not think that Flemming Funch ever did either.

As I said above, I did quote Flemming Funch because I do not think that his loyalty to NCN ever was questioned (for obvious reasons,) while my motives, on the other hand (as, I believe, the motives of other members of NCN, including yours, Richard,) have been, at one time or another, questioned for daring to say things that were deemed hostile to NCN. I quoted Flemming where and when what I quoted him on happened to be in sync with some of the things I had been trying to talk about, and for which I had come under attack, earlier on, on this post and on a previous one.  

4 Nov 2005 @ 23:18 by bushman : Manual operators
People like myself who hang out here are basicly manual operators, and Ill use your celestian prophesy example, like, if someone asks me about it, I know who to send them too, see we are the bookmarks page, one of us knows where to send you for the thing you are looking for. Thats basicly why I'm here. Theres lots of things Im personaly good at, sometimes I can help, and well I'm into spiritual stuff, but not that into it, but I know many people who are more qualified at least by my truth. So thats what I do. See its only your oppinion that NCN dosnt have deep roots, or was planted wrong, so as we are a community in that we all come here and all have the same goals for mankind, the mechanisim of NCN is not a community. How long does a bussiness have to be in bussiness to become a household name? I say alot longer than 10 years. Ming is god?, who even said that or Implyed that in this thread?, right, if anyone sees Ming as god it's his computer he used to build this place, lol.  

5 Nov 2005 @ 00:11 by uncleremus : Smooth operator

Thank you kindly, bushman, I have made a note of that, and I'll try to remember to contact you if I ever need any assistance such as you offer.  

5 Nov 2005 @ 00:12 by uncleremus : community - a matter of semantics

"Those who comment and dialogue---we're the people of NCN...and I say we're a community."
---4 Nov 2005 @ 21:19 by jazzolog

I think, all definitions should be considered probationary - lol.

Note that Richard is not saying "We are THE New Civilization Network community," he is saying "we are A community." (emphasis added)

I see no contradiction between what Richard is saying and the quote I had posted in my comment:

"It would be somewhat misleading to call something like the New Civilization Network "a community". It is not a community, virtual or not. It is a space where community might happen, and it is a place where one can set up virtual communities, i.e. online groups that people choose to belong to, in order to accomplish some particular aim in some mutually agreeable manner."
---Flemming Funch [21 Sep 2002 @ 22:12]

Consider this:

Tomorrow a bunch of new members could decide to join NCN, as a group, to interact with each other, on things that are of interest to them, in accordance with NCN guidelines.

Although they might decide to have some newslogs up and comment with each other and use NCN facilities. Those new members may decide, for a variety of reasons, that they do not particularly care to have anything to do with the current handful of members, of which Richard is speaking. Maybe they are very busy people and they don’t have the time. Or their project requires that they keep some distance. Whatever.

Well, those new members would also constitute A community of NCN.

As, it is, NCN may already have communities that do not interact with the current group of people that Richard was talking about. Well, those would be communities, too, in their own right.

I think the problem comes when people or a group of people say, "we are THE NCN community." It implies something proprietary on their part about NCN that the New Civilization Network mission statement doesn’t support. NCN doesn’t belong to them, they belong to NCN. NCN is not their community, they are A community of NCN.

Anyway, this is my take on this.

Personally, community is a word that I have been using loosely, meaning "the people who are using the network."  

5 Nov 2005 @ 00:54 by bushman : Hmm
When the Lost Tribe moved to NCN Id say I broght about 12 members with me, a couple left the next day, not wanting to be part of some cult, I had a good laugh over that. But anyway most of them are off doing thier thing on a list of chat outfits, I'm proud of them for sure. Today only a few of the original crew are still active here, and I have 51 listed members to my workgroup/chat room space, it would be more active if it had voice chat, because from expiriance we have less problems with misunderstandings, and if whats being said is important enough to write down, then we write it down. So we are both a network and a community. So wouldnt you agree that each one of us here on NCN is a network within a network? Really if there is a real problem with NCN is that it dosnt have a realtime way to communicate with each other. We can't hear the tonal changes in what is writen, we cant see your eyes, this is very important in communicating when it becomes emotional. And I would hope that if someone comes as a new member looking for a place to talk about the paranormal stuff ufos, space and time, Although there is the Nature of time workgroup that has set thier community up on thier own website now, and are also on Yahoo. That you would as an NCN member send them to the Lost Tribe workgroup/chat room. :}  

5 Nov 2005 @ 11:27 by jazzolog : Take A Look
at new member Shreepal's idea and see what you think. http://www.newciv.org/mem/persnewslog.php?did=463&vid=463&amode=standard&aoffset=0&time=1131189331&time=1131189331 Here's a vision that might get us all up off our duffs to do something together.  

7 Nov 2005 @ 18:57 by uncleremus : - I


8 Nov 2005 @ 10:59 by jazzolog : Unraveling Thread
I like the cartoon...and don't mind even the slightest tinge that my comment, just above it, might be that of a clown. If it's a reference to Shreepal though, Remus, put up your dukes.  

8 Nov 2005 @ 16:57 by uncleremus : Well, you strike me as a person
with a good sense of humor, so, I knew, you'd take it well.

I have no beef with Shreepal. (Shreepal is working on a Charter of Action for New Civilization Global Movement - http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v463/__show_article/_a000463-000004.htm)

It's just that your comment struck me as somewhat of a non sequitur in the light of the kind of things we had been talking about on this thread.

"I Await responses from more seasoned NCN members to Shreepal's request for help. I am waiting with bated breath."
---6 Nov 2005 @ 10:52 by jazzolog

Come on, Richard, I think you know better about NCN, or about human nature in general, to know that this is not exactlty how you call on people, or make things happen.

The thread of 30 comments which was generated on Shreepal's post is, I think, a good indicator of some of the symptoms of which we spoke. I am not judging here, but what you have on that thread is some of the fairly typical comments one has come to expect from some of the same few members of NCN who have been participating actively to the Newslog, responding, most of them, in their same usual manner. Again, let me stress emphatically that, as far as I am concerned, I see nothing wrong with that. Nobody can be interested in everything, different people have come to NCN to do different things, there are those for whom the kind of things Shreepal is interested in doing resonates with what they also are interested in doing. And there are those for whom it doesn't, or who are involved in other things, or have a different approach about things. I am not critical of anything anyone is doing, or not doing, here----provided of course, there is no one systematically attempting to poison NCN (it is fair game on the web and a far more frequent practice than people would think; propaganda wars, too, have been raging big time.) I believe that ultimately none of that would matter (even the eventual attempts at poisoning, or the occasional propaganda,) if there were a greater diversity of people at NCN, a greater pool of active talents, people with different backgrounds, experiences and perspectives to foster the kind of stimulating environment where synergy and creative thinking can bloom. It would also make it more likely for someone like Shreepal, or some of those, before him, some of whom, very unfortunately have left in frustration, to find people who would respond to the kind of initiative such as he is suggesting, or to any given multitude of prospective projects, which could spring as a result of a fresh influx of new blood.  

8 Nov 2005 @ 20:48 by zimpen : stuck
I have been reading most of the 66 messages here tonight and im in shock. I would like to fix it, i noticed (as a active member for 1 week and never looked on these logs before) after some days that it was quite hard atmosphere here wich i think is good compared to the online communitys that only says nice things to eachother all the time, its good with people who are not afraid to go into conflict. What vibrani said about microcosmos and macrocosmos is probably true so if it would be total harmony here it would not be connected with the rest. Just as the rest of the world we need a direction, a focused intent on something, doesnt have to be the best idea or the perfect plan but something that starts moving the boat in one direction. Shreepals drive and ideas is maby one of many but sometime it has to happen so why not go for it? ... now i have to go... mayby continue later..?  

9 Nov 2005 @ 18:46 by uncleremus : This AND That

Deja-vu all over again:

"There are certain things on which must agree to find a common ground to proceed further."
----4 Nov 2005 @ 14:57 by Shreepal Singh http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v463/__show_article/_a000463-000003.htm

"Coming together spirirtually is truly the only way."
----9 Nov 2005 @ 04:13 by iamramtha http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v459/__show_article/_a000459-000007.htm

Compare those to this:

"NCN members aren't required to agree to anything, other than to work constructively on creating a world that works for all of us, and to be tolerant of other people's views... NCN encourages people to act based on their inner inspiration and to work for the common good. For some people, that is intimately connected with a spiritual motivation and understanding. For other people it is decidedly not. Thus NCN is neutral in that regard. There is no imposition of any spiritual beliefs you have to have."
----New Civilization Network, Frequently Asked Questions

The thing is that it shouldn't really matter wether one's vision of how to contribute to the New Civilization Collective is this: http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v459/__show_article/_a000459-000007.htm , or whether one's vision is that: http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v463/__show_article/_a000463-000004.htm , just so long as no one tries to impose his or her vision to everyone else on the network and says, THIS or THAT is THE NCN VISION (i.e. in order for NCN to happen you must all jump into the global activism boat, or you must all jump into the inner spirituality boat or else.) I could be wrong but I do not believe that NCN was designed to be "about This" OR "about That," I believe that NCN was intended to be about "This" AND "That," so long as either "This" or "That," each contibute in their own ways to the New Civilization concept upon which this network was founded (i.e. "A world of increased quality of life, freedom, fun and inspiration for all. A world where the needs of all of humanity are met.") So, I am always a little wary when I see people advocating THIS to suppress THAT, or people advocating THAT to suppress THIS. Especially when THIS and THAT are not mutually exclusive (remember Rosa Parks) and opposing THIS to THAT seems, at times, like such a false quarrel.

The dynamic on which NCN is supposed to operate is a very simple one:

If you are into THIS, then do THIS. And find other who are also interested in doing THIS.

If you are into THAT, then do THAT. And find others who are also doing THAT.

If you are into THIS AND THAT, then do THIS AND THAT with the people who do THIS AND THAT.

When arguments go like that in circle, on and on, and for many years, this hardly can be a sign of good health. There could be many reasons to it:

1. Anemia:
One point I was trying to make in my comment, above [8 Nov 2005 @ 16:57], is that there is not enough of people who are pro-actively into THIS, or into THAT, or into THIS AND THAT on this network. If there were, people would be too busy networking ON A LARGE SCALE doing THIS, or THAT, or THIS AND THAT, (and even other things along the NCN guidelines which possibly would be neither THIS or THAT,) instead of trying to convert everybody else to their views.

2. Too much inbreeding:
An unbalance between THIS and THAT. Or too much of X and Y and not enough A, B,C , D, ...Z

3. Propaganda:
Some people or some groups of people have decided that NCN is about X, they have no interest into what anyone else at NCN is doing or saying, and they will have no rest until everybody sees it their way and either agrees that NCN is about X, or leaves NCN.

4. Poison:
The artificial opposition between THIS and THAT is actively fostered by people who do not have NCN's best interests at heart.

5. Some of the above

6. All of the above  

9 Nov 2005 @ 20:18 by jobrown : A NAME
of an Organisation should be neutral if its Agenda is neutral:This& That. NEW CIVILIZATION NETWORK is NOT a neutral Name and hence misleading! THIS NAME IS AN INTENTIONAL BATE to get Innocents to enter the "Vampire Grove of Transylvania"; its "New's Station Grotto" to have these Innocent well meaning/trusting people to come to be the vampires' "free meal"/psychicly stolen Energy!
IF or when there's ANY intergity seeping in to the consciousness of NCN creators/ "owners", they WILL change the name to more explanatory to what people can and should expect to get out of, or see happening, on NCN. Till then NCN is cruising under False Flag!  

9 Nov 2005 @ 20:50 by bushman : Hmm
Vampiers, lol, spose it could be true if you buy into that sillyness. NCN's title is not false, because it never implyed anything, I know I change the world, thats what NCN speculates on, linking like minded people who change the world, however they acomplish it. Hopefully for the good of all mankind, you might feel or percive it as false flag from where your standing and looking, or that we members who have changed the world didn't or dont show you each of our deeds based on what we learned in here or there, I call that tunnel vision. :}  

9 Nov 2005 @ 21:42 by uncleremus : Gentlemen, please


Blueboy: Your contention that NCN is cruising under a False Flag---which you made once, already, on 3 Nov 2005 @ 18:07---has been noted. Regardless of what my opinion might or might nor be in the matter (I, personally, do not believe NCN is flying under a false flag,) changing the name of NCN is not what this post is about.

Bushman: your objection to blueboy's contention has been noted

Now, can we please, return to the topic at hand?

If anyone has anything new to contribute to this thread, his or her comment is welcome. If no one else has anything new to contribute, then maybe it's time to consider this thread closed. If Blueboy wants to begin a new thread about NCN flying under a false flag, I am sure he can start one on his own newslog and Bushman can pursue that particular debate with him there.  

9 Nov 2005 @ 21:48 by vibrani : Uncle Remus
I invite you to read my log post on creating a new civ and comment, if you feel like it.  

9 Nov 2005 @ 22:07 by uncleremus : Related Entries
Thank you, Vibrani. As a matter of facts, I have read your Log, already, (as I have read Shreepal's and all the new entries that have recently mushroomed all over the Newslog that relate, one way or another, to the same topic,) I have refrained from commenting all over the place on everyone's Logs as I have a hard enough time, as it is already, to try to keep this one thread focused. But I have referred to both your Log and Sheepal's Log, already, in the above comment ["This AND That" - 9 Nov 2005 @ 18:46]  

9 Nov 2005 @ 22:27 by vibrani : Ah, yes, I see now
thank you. Understood.  

10 Nov 2005 @ 01:03 by uncleremus : The Elephant in the Room

"The elephant in the room (also elephant in the living room, elephant in the corner, 'elephant on the dinner table' etc) is an English idiom for a question that very obviously stands, but for the convenience of one or other party is ignored. It derives its symbolic meaning from the fact that an elephant would indeed be conspicuous and remarkable in a small room; thus the idiom also implies a value judgment that the issue should be discussed openly." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room

Referring back to my comment dated 9 Nov 2005 @ 18:46, I believe point one (NCN anemia) and point two (NCN's unbalance and excessive inbreeding) are issues that need to be addressed. I further believe that point one and point two also both are aspects of NCN that can and should be be addressed by design by the designer(s) and system thinkers of NCN. Those two issues are unlikely to correct themselves on their own----they are unlikely to do so because new people (a new variety of people working on different things and approaching issues from a variety of different perspectives) are not likely to spontaneously join NCN (i.e. actively contribute to NCN or bring some their own projects to NCN) if they feel that NCN is only about what point two (unbalance and excessive inbreeding) and point three (propaganda wars) is mistakenly making NCN look like it is only about.

Those are my observations. I happen to believe them to be relevant. Some members of NCN made it clear that they disagree with those observations, or believe them to be unimportant. Some other members thought them relevant enough to talk about some of the issues that came up on this thread. I think what really matters, regardless of what different members' opinion and perspective might be on the matter, is that people were willing to recognize that there is a problem and talk about it, or were at least willing to consider the possibility seriously enough to talk about it, whether they disagree or not.

I thank you all for your time and your contribution to this thread, and the opportunity I, and those who contributed to this thread, were given to discuss those issues openly.  

10 Nov 2005 @ 09:22 by jazzolog : Loose Threads
While this kind of topic is very "popular" at NCN (many, many, many comments, on and on) the entries almost always grind to a halt without resolution or any accomplishment outside of venting. Reviewing the thread, did we find out who Remus is or why this particular "mask" at this time? Why so few members actually log in here and participate? Is anyone asking them (you know, like is there something else the site needs)? Is the healthiest way to network in the New Civilization to mind your own business and tend your "own" cabbage patch? If one wanted a search engine in here, how do you build one? And similarly, are the answers to the tech questions at Shreepal's adequate?

PS If suspicions about my character are so rampant at NCN that even one person would think my remark to Remus to "put up your dukes" was anything but jest, I apologize from the bottom of my heart. One must always attach :-) to be clear.  

10 Nov 2005 @ 09:54 by vibrani : Jazz
Richard - please know that I did think that your comment about putting up dukes was in jest, but it still reflected the fighting mode. That's what I see as a recurring pattern at NCN - the need to start a fight, as if it's this week's thrill. What is with all the dysfunction, fear, insecurity in people that they can't stick to a topic, and they avoid most topics altogether? Lack of member involvment due to a lack of interest? Lack of ideas? Afraid they'll expose more of who they are? Preferring to chatter mindlessly away in secreted rooms plotting against this or that member, and playing ID games? Lack of mature adults is what I see. This log is one that I liked commenting to, though, it has more substance and honesty and the log owner actually comes communicates with people in a respectful manner.

I also question if anything has been resolved, other than airing out ideas and feelings and continuing the topic on other logs in other ways? What if someone were to send a message to EVERY NCN member and invite them to join in the talks here? Think that would fly? NCN - just like going to high school with cliques and soches, this group off in one corner of the room, another group off in the quad, each one taking jabs at the others - gossiping away - unable to stand each other long enough to talk about a topic honestly. Then there are the bold liars who think they have fooled some people, but not all of the people. And those who are total strangers so lacking in clear vision (but pretending they know it all) that they can't tell who's being authentic, so they insult the only authentic one in the bunch! Chances are if a person is not being authentic, they can't tell who is. I'm so over that kind of behavior, aren't you, Richard? Gad, this energy is so crappy that I have to shower afterwards. I just have no more patience for bullshit. Sorry, I can't answer any of the tech questions at Shreepal's log - not my forte.  

10 Nov 2005 @ 10:21 by jazzolog : NCN: The Net Without The Work
Yes, I agree with you. The main entity that connects all 10017 members of the database is the Emperor's Screen in the undisclosed location...and I only can conclude that he likes it that way. Of course Ming doesn't like the fighting in here either...some times. Other times he does. I like the idea of "someone" sending all the members a message. Let's see now, who can we get to do it? Maybe Romulus? Or is it too late?  

10 Nov 2005 @ 10:29 by vibrani : LOL
good one - the net without the work. Romulus? How about sending the wolves to deliver the message? ;-) Ming hasn't commented to this log at all. Think he's burned out over the topic? I wouldn't be surprised if he is. I think we're back to square one, where the quote used at the top of this log is still pretty much where NCN is at the present time.  

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Other entries in
1 Apr 2006 @ 18:08: 第7 シール
1 Apr 2006 @ 02:42: Evey's Choice
24 Mar 2006 @ 20:25: Breathing with the mind
20 Mar 2006 @ 01:56: Transparency, Anonymity and Pseudonymity
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23 Jan 2006 @ 01:05: Bodhichitta
15 Nov 2005 @ 01:36: Welcome to the Nightside
12 Nov 2005 @ 00:53: The impossible will take a little while

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